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Is it possible the butterfly itself is changing, towards being a true hibernator?

You’d better whisper that Guy. You never know, there might be some Creationists lurking on this group.

Jack

Chris wrote:I presume you're thinking of Peppered Moths?

Actually, I was thinking more of Oligia strigilis or O. latruncula (don't recall which was the studied one). In that case the melanism is currently working backwards in the city centers.

Chris wrote:The mix of phenotypes in a population can change in a shorter time frame than the underlying genotype.

That is definitely true. The change in wintering methods is indeed a more profound change.

What if there are already somewhat different populations in different parts of distribution and the genes that are better capable of hibernating are moving when the environment changes?

JKT wrote:What if there are already somewhat different populations in different parts of distribution and the genes that are better capable of hibernating are moving when the environment changes?

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mean that (bringing it back to the example) there are populations of Red Admirals that are better adapted to hibernating, that currently migrate to Finland, say, but the change in environmental conditions mean that they are altering their migratory route to reach England not Finland each summer? (I use Finland as an arbitrary example - I have no idea how successful Red Admirals are in FInland!!!)

Chris wrote:I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mean that (bringing it back to the example) there are populations of Red Admirals that are better adapted to hibernating, that currently migrate to Finland, say, but the change in environmental conditions mean that they are altering their migratory route to reach England not Finland each summer?

No, I meant that their genes might slowly migrate inside the full distribution. That might enable such adaptation to happen much faster than otherwise. Anyway, the idea is purely hypothetical without any reference to actual species or locations.

padfield wrote:In Switzerland, we've just witnessed our coldest January for 23 years, followed by a very cold February, and yet my first butterfly of the year, seen today, was a red admiral. This is only the second year I've seen red admiral after hibernation here (the first being 2007, when winter didn't happen). One butterfly doesn't make a trend, but I note that Denise's first butterfly this year was a red admiral too.

Is it possible the butterfly itself is changing, towards being a true hibernator?

The first sighting of the year reported to Herts/Middlesex Butterfly Conservation (although it was south of the Thames and would therefore come under Surrey I think) was a Red Admiral on 23rd January...

The first Herts & Middlesex sighting was actually a Brimstone.

Cheers

Lee

With regard to sightings, if you take a look at the recent UKB newsletters (latest at http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/newsletter.php?id=39), which tries to summarise the sightings being recorded throughout the British Isles, then Red Admiral sightings are quite prominent. In fact, possibly the most-seen species to date!

I guess the corollary here is that this species doesn't go into as deep a torpor as other species, and therefore "wakes up" more quickly than other species. Should a long, hard winter (I mean, really hard!), come along - then I think this species would suffer. But the warmer climate (in general) seems to be benefitting the overwintering of this species to me.

Cheers,

- Pete

Where do the Red Admirals spend their inactive time. On several cold but sunny November days, when it was only 6 degrees in the shade, there were Red Ads feeding on the apples I had placed in the sun. If they chose a deep shady place in a shed, like Peacocks & Small Torts, then they would never know there's a sunny day to be had, let alone get active. So they must be fairly hardy to spend the winter in probably a pretty exposed spot.

Regards Gruditch

Possibly telephone kiosks (see http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/reports_martinwarren.php) ... Sounds like some research is in order

Cheers,

- Pete

Tried, the damned things foxed me every time.

They would turn up sunning them self's on the chalk wall, then head out to the food source. Between feeding, and when the sun went in, they would just hang out near the food. But in late afternoon, every time they would disappear when I was doing some work, and believe me that's not often.

Regards Gruditch

I agree with Pete's observation that red admirals have to get up early, if they get up at all, because they can't go the length. They stay around until late in the autumn taking sugars and only seem to last so long over winter. Perhaps cold winters actually favour them, as they will respire less and last longer... It is interesting, though, that they do seem to be being seen more and more after hibernation, regardless of the winter in question.

I don't know where they rest up for the winter, but they do look rather leafy from the underside.

Perhaps some of them are managing to survive longer by taking advantage of sunny days to nick nectar from winter gardens and winter flowering crops.

Guy

Perhaps it is a response to the increased availability of nectar in winter? This seems to be what is causing some bumblebee species to fly in winter, rather than warmer winters.

I suspected because I never see their comings and going, that they did just crawl off into the leaf litter. It would also explain how they know that there is a sunny day going on out there.

Regards Gruditch

Matsukaze wrote:Perhaps it is a response to the increased availability of nectar in winter? This seems to be what is causing some bumblebee species to fly in winter, rather than warmer winters.

Is it? I've not seen a single bee flying this winter, of any sort, despite there being plenty of nectar available for them. In previous years I have seen bees all winter long. I put this down to the very cold winter but perhaps I'm wrong.

I wonder if Red Admirals hibernate in ivy too.

Anyway, now it's March I am looking forward to seeing my first butterfly this month (hopefully!! even if it is only a Red Admiral) and my first bees.

Susie wrote:only a Red Admiral

Whats wrong with a Red Admiral.

I did see a few bees today Susie, but they were the first since November.

Regards Gruditch

ditto susie!

im in gardens all winter long with my work and although the range of winter flowering plants producing productive flowers this year has been lower, there have been nectaring flowers out, but ive not seen a bumble bee all winter, when im usually encountering them all winter long down here on the south coast.
i have seen the odd honey bee on the first of the snow drops and crocus and today my first two species of hoverfly, but not a flutterby yet

gary.

I saw a bee on sunday looking very healthy.


Felix

I saw a honey bee today too!

There is nothing wrong with seeing a Red Admiral, I would be chuffed to see one. It is just that I am particularly keen on seeing a fresh butterfly that has emerged this year.

I spent a large part of today in the garden, it was great. So nice to be able to spend time outdoors in the sunshine without turning blue from cold. I'm off to Wakehurst Place tomorrow so hope to see plenty of bees and maybe a butterfly if I am very lucky.

No butterflies yet, but its looking hopeful if weather keeps up like it is.

I saw a honey bee today too!

We have two bee hives here and they were alive today, first they have been active this year, should get some good honey this year:

Gruditch wrote:Where do the Red Admirals spend their inactive time. On several cold but sunny November days, when it was only 6 degrees in the shade, there were Red Ads feeding on the apples I had placed in the sun. If they chose a deep shady place in a shed, like Peacocks & Small Torts, then they would never know there's a sunny day to be had, let alone get active. So they must be fairly hardy to spend the winter in probably a pretty exposed spot.

Gruditch - I, like Susie, thought they roosted and over-wintered in ivy, but I have seen them finding a night roost in Scots Pine and some garden shrubs. However, if I have a question about butterfly behaviour I go straight to Adrian Hoskins' excellent website http://www.learnaboutbutterflies.com . There he states that, at night, on cold days and during the winter months, Red Admirals roost head-downwards on the trunks or lower branches of oaks, larches and other trees where the bark-like underside of the wings provides them with excellent camouflage.

I have also seen reports, including one from Sunday on the Sussex pages, where they have been found tucked away down rabbit holes.

Cheers,

Vince

That's interesting, Vince, I didn't know that. Once again I'm wrong.

I was right about one thing though, Red Admiral(s) were on the wing at Wakehurst Place today.