www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Belated happy birthday from me too, Guy, I hope you had a good one and the dog isn't suffering from a hangover this morning!

As far as I can see we are already off topic as the subject of the thread was what I should do with the butterfly pupa once it had hatched. Personally I like to see how threads evolve so I don't mind where the thread goes as long as it doesn't get too heated and I am looking forward to reading Guy's essay and also very interested to see Felix's responses (as well as other peoples'). Both POVs are interesting and have merit.


P.S. Going a bit off topic, but emotions are not just a product of the brain (in humans anyway) they are created in other parts of the body too.

I know there is no way of proving it, but surly butterflies must get some pleasure out of "having a tumble", as Flashman would say.

Gruditch

I would have thought that there are some basic urges that are the same across most creatures above a certain level of development which, when satisfied, would result in a chemical "hit" or reward.

Oh well!!

I wrote a 10 page essay this morning and into the afternoon, without touching a drop of that barrel of home brew. Then into town, walk the dog, come home, reread it and discover that it was one of the most turgid, pompous things I'd ever penned. So Asha and I finished the barrel while I wrote an entirely new one. That one started out well but sort of went downhill as the ale took its toll!! I stopped when I realised I had started waffling uncontrollably.

Anyway, true to promise, I posted it and it can be read by anyone who wishes here:

http://www.guypadfield.com/imagination.html

I can't actually recommend reading it, but there may be a few ideas for people to think about, even if only to reject or laugh at... I only posted it to keep my word!!

Guy

Thanks for delivering on the promise Guy - you've woven a great story and I appreciate the amount of effort you've put into this. Some thought-provoking insights there!

I learn from butterflies all the time.

Cheers,

- Pete

Thanks Guy - very interesting and clearly an awful lot of effort to put together.

However, I don't think we shall ever agree on the content of paragraph fifteen of your essay. The crux of the matter as it were. This is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Such a fundamental difference of opinion in fact that it could fuel session after session of beer drinking with no sign of a resolution... Probably good fun trying to reach one though

Certainly a lot of food for thought...

Thanks both. I'd give myself D- for a fairly shoddy essay, but there we are. I really do blame the beer. I had to bring the barrel in because it kept freezing outside (we had -32 C in Switzerland on Saturday night) and that meant I had to drink it very quickly, before it went off.

I strongly suspect we would agree on more than you think, Felix. The point of para 15 is merely to repeat that the empirical method alone cannot determine the criteria for ascription of so-called mental states (because it can't test for them, independently of whatever criteria you feed into it) - it can only help you to apply whatever criteria you come up with by some other means. I did omit the various 'recursive emergent systems' theorists, who think they have logically deduced criteria - but in the end, although their criteria are fascinating and very well worked out (and are definitely criteria for something interesting), the choice to designate them conscious states is again based more on something akin to gut feeling, or self-evidence, than it is on any kind of rational demonstration.

So if your gut feeling is different from mine, it shouldn't cause any wars! Providing, of course, you don't go around gleefully torturing butterflies because you are so sure you're right!!

When exactly are you coming out for your dose of homebrew? Unfair question. But every time I fly home I do stop at a real ale hole in Victoria Station, so maybe one day I'll meet a few UK Butts members.

Guy

padfield wrote:Providing, of course, you don't go around gleefully torturing butterflies

Not while there are still a few deserving politicians and senior bankers...!