www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

jackharr wrote:
A far greater danger to fragile colonies of rare species is if too few people know about it and accidental destruction of the habitat occurs through ignorance. We all love to see and photograph rare butterflies; that is the modern form of collecting.

As for trampling, again the damage is surely over-rated? We are quite happy for trampling by livestock as that can produce beneficial micro-climates. Human trampling might similarly minimize scrub invasion. I believe that Duke of Burgundy might even benefit for a degree of human trampling (wasn’t it you Guy who said that?)

Jack

Too few people.... as always, can be two or more sides to any story.

I have known instances of when a landowner has been alerted to the presence of a local species ( ie. Marsh Fritillary ) on their property ..... the ploughs and bulldozers arrived shortly afterwards. Coincidence? Yeah ... right!

Glad to say the 'Duke' is still present in good numbers up on the nearby hills ~ one site less than three miles from my home. However, many of those open scrubby grasslands I remember as a boy are now Birch and Ash Copses, many dense and now far too overgrown. Thus, the habitat is less suitable for several species of Fritillary including the Duke that were there in good numbers even as late as the mid-1970s, early 80s.

Trampling.... comes in various forms.

One increasingly overgrown area had been reduced to a wide track with some Cowslips. Ideal and supporting good numbers of "The Duke" at the track sides. Came a very rainy and muddy week or two in spring, concentrated foot and hoof traffic turned the whole track area into a huge mudbath ~ nothing much would survive that except a few worms. Feet and hoof damage can almost be as effective as a bulldozer. Leisure Horse riding is on the increase certainly in my neck of the woods. I drive carefully in the local lanes aware of the potential for Horse-motor collisions. Frequently get a nice wave from the riders when I slow down for them. I drive a low car ~ not easy to be seen over the hedgerows even by drivers of taller vehicles. Thing is, when the riders, mainly youngish girls or women put away their mounts... guess what they do... jump in their poxy 4-be-4s and blat round those same blind corners in a selfish and dangerous manner..... every bluddy time!!! There's a horsey/stud farm near my property and on several occasions over the years, I have had to take emergency avoiding action by these so called 'country types' ..... Grrrrrhhhh....

So, how best to deal with these 'conservation' problems. .... nobody has come up with an effective balanced solution here in the UK or elsewhere come to think of it. Too many folks on the planet and as they demand more of a greedy share .... no brainer and of those "too many" folks a good proportion regard anyone concerned about such things as in some way sub-standard .... labelling them "Tree Huggers" and such like....

Look around you ... far too much evidence of Homo sapiens excelling only at getting things wrong....

We're all doomed ... aint that the truth..... Bet that's cheered you all up .....
..

Cotswold Cockney wrote: Too few people.... as always, can be two or more sides to any story.

I have known instances of when a landowner has been alerted to the presence of a local species ( ie. Marsh Fritillary ) on their property ..... the ploughs and bulldozers arrived shortly afterwards. Coincidence? Yeah ... right!

Trampling.... comes in various forms.
..

Too many/too few. It all depends on the people and their level of knowledge and understanding. I mentioned I was into butteflies to a farmer I met. His response was "my wife would be interested in that"! He did leave 5m field strips; when I suggested he leave 10m he said it was uneconomic - wheat prices were high and that extra 5m was worth more as grain than any grant from the Government - and easier to collect! And it does not surprise me that some farmers behave as you described - they are worried that they may be in some way constrained in the management of their land by the presence of a few insects! Education seems to be the key; not that most (but not all) landowners I have met seem that keen to change or learn! The ones that are and do manage for wildlife need to take-up the call for their peers to act!

Well - trampling does open-up the earth for new seeds or exposes the existing seed-bank and can help establish flower-friendly conditions. Certainly, in the cemetery near where I live, kids playing in the long-grass of the "meadow" area and dog-walkers (not my favourite people on the whole!) who walk regularly each day have created paths and knocked-down large areas to provide some micro-climates and areas where wild-flowers (rather than coarse grasses) can flourish; I recorded the first Common Blues and Brown Argus I have seen in there this year.

And if it reaches the stage that butterflies are THAT dependent on a single area ...well, we might as well all give-up our efforts NOW!

What a cheery lot we are

I do feel however, that things are slowly getting better generally; even councils are starting to get some joined-up thinking about their property management and initiatives. It is a shame that many of their operatives don't get it! (In my local cemetery, operatives are told to leave the grave-areas alone - they are oases of plant-life; however, they say it is "disrespectful" and strim the lot!)
Given the amount of land that councils manage, it should be part of every councils' duty to educate their workforce and employees and the public about the management issues and pressures they face.
The amount of public money spent on simply cutting grass areas or flailing hedges is a scandal; with less interventions they could create wildlife-friendly habitats instead. And with LESS input=LESS cost to the public, we should all benefit...
Plus ca change...
N

The trouble with education regarding conservation is work which may benefit one species may adversely affect another. A little knowledge can be more dangerous than none at all.

Sure! There are always winners and loosers! ... birders don't like the idea of scrub being removed from some sites to make way for butterfly meadows... for instance! Cutting down grasses to the roots may suite Chalkhill Blues, but not Skippers, etc, etc. Much of the time it is down to the value-judgements of those involved; and not everyone has the same values!

But the way to get round much of this criticism is to create mosaics that grade between different habitats which are managed in rotation; in that way there are always areas growing up and those which are cleared. (In fact, this is how much of the countryside USED to be managed; that is one of the reasons for the decline of many species - no suitable habitat to move into once an area grows up)
I think we tend to get rather single-minded about creation of one habitat for a particular species, rather than look for a solution which accomodates more, even if it is less-than-ideal for the target species. Similarly, more research into habitat requirements is necessary to guide our actions....
My 2p worth....
N

Nick:

My 2p worth....

Two penn'orth would you believe! Typical mean Yorkshireman. I might be referred to as a Norfolk Dumpling, but we Norfolk people aren't noted for meanness.

Did you know that three famous people were born in Norfolk? The other two are Horatio Nelson and F.W.Frohawk.

Jack

2p is twice my normal contribution!
That's a 200% increase!

2p is twice my normal contribution!
That's a 200% increase!

I can never quite get my head around % increases. I reckon that twice implies a 100% increase.

Zimbabwe's inflation is 2,000,000% or some such nonsense number - all that really means is that the poor b-ggers are desperately poor - except for the "Rt.Hon" whatisname who is apparently all set to spend in excess of $300,000 on his 85th birthday bash. It's my mother-in-law's 90th soon. I hope she hasn't got similar ideas for an extravagant party. I might even go along to that briefly. It's on 4th May (a very good butterfly time of year) and Bristol, her home, would be pretty good base for some butterflying. I would get in her good books but wouldn't explain the real motivation behind my visit

Jack

I was waiting for that one!

This is perhaps a bit off topic (well off the original topic) but I'm interested to know your views on organic farming as a way of promoting a healthy countryside - which is what we all want. I always buy organically grown food when the option is there (which it almost always is at my local Co-op) - not for my own health but because spraying toxins on the living countryside has always seemed quite obscene to me. I was at one of my Provençal fritillary sites a couple of years ago when the local vineyard owner started chatting to me about what I was doing. He had abandoned chemicals on his vines some years previously and was very proud of the abundance of flowers and insects. Certainly, it is a fantastic habitat now for all sorts of butterflies because there are simply so many different flowers and herbs growing.

It seems to me that a major drive towards organic methods would make the farmed countryside - which is most of the countryside - a so much more healthy and living place, benefitting insects, birds, everything. But farmers cannot afford to do this unless consumer demand and political will make it cost-effective.

One of the problems with current organic legislation, in my opinion, is that it is focused on the health of the consumer rather than the health of the countryside. Thus, a farm cannot declare itself organic if its neighbours are polluting the soil. Would it help if the Soil Association recognised farmers who themselves abstained from using toxic chemicals even if their neighbours continued to? I would happily buy produce from such farms.

Organic produce is currently more expensive than ungraded produce. But let's face it, most people eat too much, so the budget needn't go up - you just have to eat less. It's a question of values and will.

I'm genuinely interested in your opinions - I'm constantly impressed with the knowledge and practical experience of contributors to these forums.

Guy

jackharr wrote:Nick:

My 2p worth....

Two penn'orth would you believe! Typical mean Yorkshireman. I might be referred to as a Norfolk Dumpling, but we Norfolk people aren't noted for meanness.



Jack

Is that the same as tuppence in English?

I could have said 2d...
...as in £sd..but in deference to youth I used the modern equivalent!
Can't speak for Jack.... but I think they had the previous Queen on the coinage when he was a boy...

padfield wrote:This is perhaps a bit off topic (well off the original topic) but I'm interested to know your views on organic farming as a way of promoting a healthy countryside
Guy

I for one mostly (I can't say always) buy organic (I don't have any kids to feed tho', so cost is not the same issue for me as some). I reckon that if someone has gone to the trouble and care of farming organically, they care more about the produce and not as much for the profit (tho' Brian Archer may have different motivations!). There is of course the issue of air-miles - your organic fine beans may have come from Kenya for instance, where the use of inorganic fertilisers and pesticides has not been so prevalent as in the UK and it is easier to get organic certification - so one has to be aware of where food comes from as well.

I agree that it seems unfair to penalise farmers for their neighbours' practices. I also agree that consumers' health, rather than that of the countryside, seems to be the driver for organic practices, but at least there are spin-off benefits. Rather than organic we should perhaps be more concerned about "sustainable" farming and local sourcing?
N

Well done Kipper! Wearing his Butterfly Conservation hat he was successful in making the highways agency rethink their hedgecutting plans for my neck of the woods.

A round of applause ...

Now on to the next job .... safe guarding the master tree

Now on to the next job .... safe guarding the master tree

Ah, but isn't the Master Tree now considered an outdated concept? Mind you, the Kipper showed me a "master tree" in Southwater Woods so who is to argue? Neil predicted....and he was right.

Jack

I don't know if there really is only one master tree per area or a series of them but I know for a fact that some brown hairstreaks gathered at this ash tree last year and I've got the photos to prove it. Also this one is a five minute walk away and very convenient so I really don't want the butterflies to go elsewhere.

Nice one, Kipper & Susie!
One for the good guys!
(Just hope the cutters get the right instructions at the right time and do it in the right way in the right places )

Hi Susie,
Yes, a good result! I shall be coming your way as soon as time allows to have a better look at your patch. As far as Jack's point about Master Trees - the concept of a 'Master Tree' for Purple Emperors has been modified rather than discarded, as the term is slightly misleading. In very few circumstances does the image of a single, isolated, mighty oak (or ash or pine) at which all the males congregate, hold true. In most cases it's a collection of several (quite often 3) trees, providing a sheltered embayment(s) within the crown. The males will move around this cluster of trees, depending on wind direction and time of day (exposure to sunshine). The example (Dogbarking MT ) at Southwater that we visited is a pair of large oaks, and if you recall they liked that narrow, sheltered gap up top. Nor are 'Master Trees' always at the very highest local point, although many are. Visibility over the surrounding territory seems to be the key, so often they are at good vantage points near clearings or along wayleaves. The Brown Hairstreak seems to adhere more strictly to a single 'Master Tree' concept and the few I know of do seem to support all of the local males.
Neil

Hi Susie, You need to go back to the borough council, and get a preservation order put on the tree/ trees.

Gruditch

The example (Dogbarking MT ) at Southwater

I can remember where that is but I couldn't recall that strange name. I think you told me why it's so called but again I can't remember. Was it something to do with nearby hunt kennels?

I didn't know about the concept of master trees for Brown Hairstreaks. I got a hint of a master tree last year at Whitecross Green but would hardly claim that two butterflies seen around that tree constitutes proof. Purple Hairstreaks certainly mill around particular Oaks but I had presumed that is simply because they are trees on which they breed. More to research I guess.

Jack

I just posted a long post and it got eaten so I shall keep this brief.

The area where the "Master tree" is(actually a collection of several ash flanked by oak) is in the centre of a large natural bowl with hills on all sides which is several miles across so not actually at a high point. There are eggs on the hill on one side of the area and I saw BH outside of our village in the opposite direction so the territory is several miles across. There may be more congretation points around here but this is the only one I have found so far. Next summer will be very interesting, so much to discover!