www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Guy, sightings of Painted Ladies in February or March are no guarantee of overwintering. In early Feb.2004 there was a sizeable influx of Painted Ladies into southern England, accompanied by many migrant moths. Many of these butterflies were still to be seen a month later in spite of several frosty nights later in the month. One morning I even saw a PL in strong flight in the sun when there was a thin covering of snow! During this period I saw them taking nectar from hebe, winter heathers, aubretia and laurustinus.

Misha

susie,
in answer to your question "do painted ladys ever feed on rotton fruit"? ive never witnessed it, but a sighting has just been posted on the hants iow bc web site reporting 2 painted lady along with red admiral and comma "all" feeding on rotton apples and pears.

so i guess they may well do, has anyone here ever seen it?

gary.

I've never seen painted ladies on rotten fruit, and there certainly weren't any on the rotting piles of grapes in the valley today. I didn't see any PL at all, in fact, though it turned out to be quite a cloudy day so it is quite possible things were around that I missed.

I did see an exceptionally late speckled wood, though. I've posted a picture here: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/phpBB2/v ... 156#p29156

Guy

and there certainly weren't any on the rotting piles of grapes in the valley today.

Tut!! Whatta waste.

The habits of the PLs in a bumper year here are causing a few scratched heads. However these problems are good ones,,, imagine a year without them.

Why are some hanging on here, now? (its mild, often we have had snow now)
How many have left for southern climes? (loads, these are the survivors)
How many of those staying will survive the British winter? (unknown, but probably not a lot)
Will mainland Europe PLs behave the same? (unlikely i suspect they have gone south already)
Does Britain have milder winters than mainland Europe? (yes)
Is a British winter wetter? (probably)
Do PLs hibernate? (probably not)
All these probables are variable, and are reflected in the habits of migratory species.
If i were a Painted Lady in Britain at the moment, i reckon i would be looking death in the face at this time, as hundreds do, and and they perish. As do other insects and birds.
It is good that some survive,,,it results in years like 2009.

I have never seen them on rotting fruit either. During July where the most of the Northern Irelands Painted ladies came here, I put some rotton apples out with sugar and some was mushed up and one or two Red Admirals found it, but the painted ladies just landed nearby and sunned themselves and never bothered with feeding on it.

Why are some hanging on here, now? (its mild, often we have had snow now)

Guessing because other years is been in some places more so, quite a bit colder than it has been now and this milder weather has made them hang on.

Is a British winter wetter? (probably)
Do PLs hibernate? (probably not)

I'd guess probably on wetter, thats why Silver Y moths don't normally survive winter here and leave. And I have not known PLs to hibernate as adults, just die as what Guy said too, they don't hibernate as adults, just die.

SO ... Here's where I've got to. I'm trying to understand...

I USED to think (that is, until you all told me I was wrong ) that painted lady migration was a long-term survival strategy aimed at dispersal. On that theory, there is a residency base, where the species is present all year round, and it is particularly adapted to conditions in this base (currently, North Africa). On the same theory, there is little advantage, or perhaps some disadvantage, in individuals that have experienced quite different selection pressures in northern Europe returning to the resident population in the autumn.

I NOW tend to believe the migration is more likely to be a short-term, annual strategy, for a continuously brooded species that doesn't hibernate or aestivate. In the cooler, winter months, it breeds in North Africa. In the hot months, when North Africa is extremely inhospitable, it breeds in Europe. In the spring, the general migration direction is northwards, reaching more and more northerly climes as the summer heats up. Later, successive generations have a southward tendency, and at least some of them reach North Africa again, providing continuity for the species.

Obviously, far more individuals are produced in Europe than the North African breeding grounds could possibly cope with, so the individuals 'lost' up north don't matter. The benefit is, that plenty of butterflies do end up breeding again in the North African winter.

The long-term effect this short-term strategy would inevitably have is that the butterfly would rapidly spread to any areas where suitable conditions existed - hence the cosmopolitan range of the species.

Question: Soes anyone know anything about painted ladies in North Africa during the summer? What kind of populations survive there? Are they enough, alone, to ensure the survival of the species there?

Guy

There was a fascinating presentation, Radar studies of Lepidoptera migration, at the BC AGM yesterday. To cut a long story short, they recorded the PL coming in on mass at a low altitude, in the spring. And leaving on mass at high altitude ( 600m ) in the Autumn. At high altitude they can get into fast moving air streams and cover as much as 100kmph.

I think Pete would agree with me, we were gob smacked by that presentation, amazing.

Regards Gruditch

Dave McCormick wrote:And I have not known PLs to hibernate as adults, just die as what Guy said too, they don't hibernate as adults, just die.

Dave,

The first (I think this is the first) proof positive of Painted Lady successfully over wintering in this country was an individual marked with a permanent marker pen in October 1997 at Hayle in Cornwall. This same butterfly was observed again in April 1998 following a mild Winter (although with some nights dropping to -2 degC locally). The individual was last seen in the locality on May 19th that year.

Felix.

Felix wrote:

Dave McCormick wrote:And I have not known PLs to hibernate as adults, just die as what Guy said too, they don't hibernate as adults, just die.

Dave,

The first (I think this is the first) proof positive of Painted Lady successfully over wintering in this country was an individual marked with a permanent marker pen in October 1997 at Hayle in Cornwall. This same butterfly was observed again in April 1998 following a mild Winter (although with some nights dropping to -2 degC locally). The individual was last seen in the locality on May 19th that year.

Felix.

Well based on what you said, seems they could survive winter, but seems only that one was proof (not sure if there was others) of it being able to hibernate, does not mean that they will always be able to survive winter and hibernate sucessfully, one report would hardly justify this. We may have to run a test this year to see if any do survive if the ones still here don't leave now.

Felix said

in April 1998 following a mild Winter (although with some nights dropping to -2 degC locally).

That had to be an unusually mild winter tho, even i could have survived it. Maybe it was a fluke year, although i concede that fluke years are getting more numerous.

Dave McCormick wrote:Well based on what you said, seems they could survive winter, but seems only that one was proof (not sure if there was others) of it being able to hibernate, does not mean that they will always be able to survive winter and hibernate sucessfully, one report would hardly justify this. We may have to run a test this year to see if any do survive if the ones still here don't leave now.

Keep an open mind Dave, remember it wasn't that long ago that the Red Admiral was considered to be a migrant insect that did not over winter in Britain, and yet now we know that all stages of the life cycle can withstand all but the harshest British winter in the South of England, and that this happens on a regular basis. The prospect of observing this in England with the Painted Lady is made more difficult than with it's close relative as it occurs in this country with less frequency and in fewer numbers, which could well explain why this behaviour has not been recorded with certainty on many occasions.

Quote from the Millenium Atlas "...overwintering [of the Painted Lady] may be a more common event than was previously thought."

There are records from this country of cavers and pot-holers discovering Painted Ladies (along with Red Admirals etc) while exploring caverns, but of course without evidence that the individual insects made it through to Spring with success.
Ref: 'Kent & East Sussex Underground' by Bradshaw, J. (pub: Kent Underground Research Group, 1991)

If you read the posts on this thread your questions may be answered; Guy correctly stated that Painted Ladies do not hibernate (in the biological sense, but may be able to over winter), and you'll also see that I have suggested that people try mark-and-release if they feel confident/comfortable/able to do this.

Felix.

I would certainly be interested in marking and releasing any painted ladies I find in the garden here if someone could let me know how to do it.

If painted ladies can overwinter and not hibernate then perhaps the only thing stopping them from surviving the winter in greater numbers is lack of food when they do venture out on sunny days.

Yeah I see your point Felix, will keep an open mind, but Painted Ladies are not normally supposed to hibernate in Adult stage unlike the Red Admiral that is. Seems over the years Painted Ladies have seemed to aquire doing so. Seems this year we learned more about Painted Ladies (I know I did) that we knew before.

Also I was checking an E-mil I got about Painted Ladies and I think it may be of interest ( am not sure if I posted this before) It was from Ian Rippy from BCNI. I asked him about there being more reports in June/July/August of Red Admirals than in other parts of the UK at that time and where I live in Mountstewart, Co Down, Northern Ireland, seems a better place for migrant Red Admirals and Painted Ladies than most other areas in the country:

Regarding the source of NI's RAs in 2009, although a few may have overwintered (*yours are the only winter ones I have heard about in the past couple of winters although there were a number in 2006/2007 which was the mildest winter in recent years, and followed a good summer for them) I have little doubt that the ones we have seen from late summer onwards were the progeny of ones which migrated here at the end of June and early July; this was a fair sized influx but because there were so many Painted Ladies they were perhaps not as noticeable. However there were relatively few from late May to the end of June at the time when Painted Ladies were particularly numerous. The resultant progeny seemed to have peaked in most places in late August or early September (see http://www.butterflyireland.com and http://www.bcni.org.uk) though Mountstewart may have been an exception (the numbers of garden Painted Ladies and Red Admirals seem to have been much higher in Mountstewart and also around Ballymena, etc, than elsewhere). Possibly the earlier peak there might have been the result of progeny from hibernated individuals, although this is speculation. I imagine Mountstewart is fairly mild in winter, as it is near the coast (both of the Outer and Inner Ards, so that winds from almost any direction will have come from the sea or Strangford Lough not many miles away; at the same time it is relatively sunny (Ballywatticock which is only a mile or two away, is often the sunniest place in Northern Ireland - in Northern Ireland's sunniest ever summer of 1995, its average daily sunshine of 7.73 hours per day from June to August equalled that of Rosslare, Co. Wexford, on average the sunniest part of Ireland).

As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), true hibernation and aestivation involve strategic metabolic shutdown ensuring extremely low respiratory requirements for the diapause period. Some environmental trigger is required to bring the insect out of this stage. By contrast, almost any insect can survive quite long periods of torpor if exactly the right continuous environmental conditions (sufficient cold to keep respiratory requirements low, but not enough cold to kill the insect) prevail. Insects that don't have a true hibernating stage, like painted ladies, will be more vulnerable to variable conditions and their overwintering will be more random.

Red admirals spend a lot of time in autumn feeding on sugars - is this because they don't achieve the complete shutdown that some other hibernators do? Is this also why they typically continue flying later than other hibernators? Do they keep respiring over the winter months more than, say, large tortoiseshells? Large tortoiseshells mostly go to bed in July or August, regardless of how warm it is, and wake up again in March, seven months later, spanking fresh and energetic! Red admirals are still flying in November and frequently wake from their winter torpor in January or February.

Guy

Hi Guy,

As I understand things (which in all honesty is going to be a lot less than you!) you're spot on.

Although Red Admirals are quoted in most literature as 'hibernators' their behaviour does differ from other nymphalids that truly hibernate as adults (certainly in this country); namely that their period in diapause is extremely variable and seems to be influenced greatly by local environmental conditions, and that they also occasionally overwinter in other stages of their life cycle.

Other hibernating nymphalids enter their winter aestivation as a result of photoperiodic stimulus and emerge (I assume) following a period of mean environmental temperatures greater than X; whereas the trigger that sends Red Admirals to bed seems to be more to do with temperature and their ability to be physically active at all. It is fairly safe to assume that Painted Ladies would behave in the same manner (if they over wintered).

Red Admirals I assume would also be far more vulnerable to disturbance (a few unseasonably warm January days perhaps) during their over wintering period than other hibernating nymphalids, only to use up their energy levels and subsequently perish.

Is there any further info on this anywhere on the web (i.e. has anyone got more time to spare looking than I have..!)

Felix.

Lee H wrote:Ok, I'll post sightings later in the autumn

Hi Pete,

As mentioned earlier in the year, here are my Painted Lady sightings from this year:

Painted Lady Sightings 2009
24th May x 25+ Runnymede, Surrey (some feeding, mostly flying NW)
25th May x 20+ central Windsor, Berkshire (flying NE)
29th May x 2 More London Place, London SE1
29th May x 2 Pitshanger Lane, Ealing, London W5
30th May x 5 Greenford Park Cemetery, Middlesex UB6
2nd June x 2 Acton & West London College, Acton, London W3
2nd June x 2 Delgarno Gardens, North Kensington, London, W10
7th June x 1 Burnham Beeches, Buckinghamshire
21st June x 1 A4, Osterley, Middlesex
27th June x 1 Greenford Park Cemetery, Middlesex UB6
4th July x 3 (1 fresh) Bernwood Forest, Buckinghamshire
22nd July x 1 Victoria Station, London
25th July x 3 (all fresh) Drayton Green, Ealing, London W13
27th July x 1 Greenford Road, Greenford, Middlesex, UB6
28th July x 2 Popes Lane, Ealing, London, W5
28th July x 10 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
30th July x 2 Popes Lane, Ealing, London, W5
30th July x 1 Gunnersbury Lane, Acton, London, W3
30th July x 8 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
30th July x 1 Bus Stop C, Shepherds Bush tube station, London, W12
31st July x 1 Acton Fire Station, Acton, London W3
31st July x 1 Acton Town tube station, Acton, London, W3
31st July x 1 Ladbroke Grove tube station, London, W10
2nd August x 1 Haven Green, Ealing, London, W5
2nd August x 1 Mount Park Road, Ealing, London, W5
2nd August x 1 Worminghall, Buckinghamshire
2nd August x 28 Bernwood Forest, Buckinghamshire
3rd August x 1 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
4th August x 2 Greenford Park Cemetery, Middlesex UB6
5th August x 1 Bus Stop ‘DA: Hall Drive’, Greenford Avenue, Hanwell, London, W7
5th August x 3 Gunnersbury Lane, Acton, London, W3
5th August x 9 (8 fresh, 1 worn) Reynolds Sports Centre, Acton, London, W3
7th August x 1 South Ealing tube station, Ealing, London, W5
7th August x 1 Alleyn Green, Norwood Green, Middlesex, UB2
7th August x 1 Kingsbridge Road, Norwood Green, Middlesex, UB2
7th August x 11 Southall Train station, Middlesex, UB2
7th August x 2 Iron Bridge, Southall, Middlesex, UB2
7th August x 1 Hanwell train station, London, W7
7th August x 2 West Ealing Train station, Ealing, London, W13
7th August x 1 Royal Oak tube station, London, W2
8th August x 4 Footpath beside river Brent between Greenford, UB6 & Gurnell Leisure Centre, Ealing, W13
8th August x 2 Footpath between Gurnell Leisure Centre, Ealing, W13 & Perivale Athletics Track, Middlesex UB6
8th August x 2 Windmill Lane, Greenford, Middlesex, UB6
9th August x 3 Windmill Lane, Greenford, Middlesex, UB6
9th August x 1 Greenford Park Cemetery, Middlesex UB6
10th August x 1 Ealing Broadway station, Ealing, London, W5
10th August x 1 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
11th August x 2 Hooper Street, Whitechapel, London, EC3
11th August x 3 Little Somerset Street, London, E1
11th August x 3 Lime Street, London, EC3
11th August x 2 Acton Town tube station, Acton, London, W3
11th August x 3 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
11th August x 5 Waste ground opposite Hayes & Harlington train station, Middlesex, UB3
16th August x 15 Windover Hill, Wilmington, East Sussex
16th August x 10 Seven Sisters Country Park, East Sussex
17th August x 9 Gerrards Cross train station, Buckinghamshire
18th August x 1 Acton Tram Depot, Acton, London, W3
22nd August x 1 (very worn) Box Hill, Surrey
23rd August x 1 Windmill Lane, Greenford, Middlesex, UB6
30th August x 4 Cooper’s Hill Slopes, Surrey
17th September x 3 Lynmouth, Devon
17th September x 1 Braunton, Devon
26th September x 1 Greenford Park Cemetery, Middlesex UB6
30th September x 50+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain
1st October x 50+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain (lunchtime)
1st October x 150+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain (late afternoon)
2nd October x 2 Torrevieja, Spain
2nd October x 150+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain (late afternoon)
3rd October x 50+ Parc Natural De Las Salinas, De La Mata, Spain
3rd October x 6 Cuidad Quesada, Spain
4th October x 1 Guadamar, Spain
4th October x 1 San Luis, Spain
4th October x 1 Parque El Recorral, Near Cuidad Quesada, Spain
4th October x 50+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain
5th October x 50+ Cuidad Quesada, Spain

Hope this helps for your article. If you need it in a word format, just let me know.

Cheers

lee

Ah - "Bus Stop C, Shepherds Bush tube station, London, W12" - the new butterfly Mecca

Brilliant - thanks Lee. Just shows how widespread cardui was this year!

Cheers,

- Pete

While we are on Painted Lady Sightings, here are all mine for the year too (All Northern Ireland) 30th was when the big wav of migrants appeared, where I live is on a migration route for many species including many migrant moths, butterflies and birds and many stay here in Mountstewart as habitat is right for them:

First in Northern Ireland were found in 28th April. 3 were found in Bishops Mountain, Drumaness, Ballynahinch, Co. Down. Last was seen here on 18th October. 1 was found on Battery rd moortown, Co. Tyrone. (I can't recall any more being seen since then in Northern Ireland)

I have given as much Map References as I know, some places I don't yet know map references to. Mountstewarts 4 figure map reference is (J5772)

30th May: (20+) Balloo Industrial Estate Bangor, Co. Down
30th May (10+) 12 Stewart Road, Newtownards, Co. Down
30th: (80+) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J556699)
31st: (90+) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J556699)
1st June: (1) Outside Leisure Center, Bangor, Co. Down
9th June: (6) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J556699)
23rd June (3) Gasworks, Portaferry Road, beside Mountstewart, Co. Down
24th June (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)
26th June (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J561700)
29th June (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)
14th July (1) Castle Espie, Co. Down (J4967)
26th July (5) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J561701)
2nd August (50+) Mountstewart Gardens, Mountstewart, Co. Down - So many I gave up counting, so possibly nearer 100+ (50 was how many I did count)
8th August (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)
17th August (10) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)
24th August (3) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J561700)
4th September (1) BP Garage, Bangor Road, Newtownards, Co. Down
7th September (2) South Street Car Park, Newtownards, Co. Down (J559699)
11th September (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)
12th September (1) Mountstewart, Co. Down (J559699)

I think some information may be lacking as I do remeber days when I saw a lot of painted ladies, had the most seen in Northern Ireland, as well as Red Admrial large numbers.

Pete Eeles wrote:Ah - "Bus Stop C, Shepherds Bush tube station, London, W12" - the new butterfly Mecca

Brilliant - thanks Lee. Just shows how widespread cardui was this year!

Cheers,

- Pete

Yes I have high hopes for that site next year!

And when I see it like that it also shows how much I've been around...

I can give map references too if needed Pete?

Cheers

Lee

Lee Hurrell wrote:I can give map references too if needed Pete?

Thanks Lee - will let you know. Now is a good time to send those records to the relevant branch of BC too

Cheers,

- Pete