www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

And I forgot to add , I bet I have that wrong

Roger, Guy - thankyou so much. I think I now "get it" for Provencal Fritillary. I'll take a new look through all the photos I took and try to find one to replace the existing incorrectly identified photo in my post above.

The "dumbell" or "figure of 8" of "H" marking really is distinctive now I know what I'm looking for! Wish I had known that when I was there.

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:54 pm And I forgot to add , I bet I have that wrong

I think you were right when you said you thought it was a heavily marked athalia, but you were wrong when you said you thought you had got it wrong.

It seems to demonstrate that there are some very tricky specimens out there.

One of my quests in the Pyrenees has been False Heath Fritillary diamina form vernetenis which looks very unlike nominate diamina. I had a collection of photos (I think Guy saw them, maybe) of contenders, all of them quite different. The expert view was that they were all athalia. So I still only have only one confident image from 2003 taken with an old film camera.

Roger

Roger, Guy - How about this one? I can see the "figure of 8" but have I been mistaken again?

Female deione, all day long!

Guy

The females are pretty easy compared to the males. That's why I tend to 'pot' the males to inspect the palpi.

Roger Gibbons wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:42 pm

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:54 pm And I forgot to add , I bet I have that wrong

I think you were right when you said you thought it was a heavily marked athalia, but you were wrong when you said you thought you had got it wrong.

It seems to demonstrate that there are some very tricky specimens out there.

One of my quests in the Pyrenees has been False Heath Fritillary diamina form vernetenis which looks very unlike nominate diamina. I had a collection of photos (I think Guy saw them, maybe) of contenders, all of them quite different. The expert view was that they were all athalia. So I still only have only one confident image from 2003 taken with an old film camera.

Roger

Firstly , apologies Paul for hijacking your diary one last time , but , Roger , I took these at La Molina at 1600mtrs at the same time in a marshy gulley. I again rigorously checked all available information and identified them as diamina. I wonder how they compare with your photos and conclusions

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:55 pm Firstly , apologies Paul for hijacking your diary one last time ...

My apologies too!

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:55 pm ... but , Roger , I took these at La Molina at 1600mtrs at the same time in a marshy gulley. I again rigorously checked all available information and identified them as diamina. I wonder how they compare with your photos and conclusions

I think those show diamina too. The underside is definitive in this case, though vernetensis does not always show those typical dark brands, making it harder in such cases.

Guy

Padfield wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:00 pm

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:55 pm Firstly , apologies Paul for hijacking your diary one last time ...

My apologies too!

Andy02 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:55 pm ... but , Roger , I took these at La Molina at 1600mtrs at the same time in a marshy gulley. I again rigorously checked all available information and identified them as diamina. I wonder how they compare with your photos and conclusions

I think those show diamina too. The underside is definitive in this case, though vernetensis does not always show those typical dark brands, making it harder in such cases.

Guy

Thank you Guy

First, I agree that Paul’s last image is clearly female deione – the colour contrast but mostly the discal s1 mark are conclusive. Well done, Paul, make that life-tick!

Second, I’ll add my apologies for also hijacking Paul’s thread.

Third, the most recent pair from Andy are diamina, which seems fairly clear, from both surfaces but especially the underside. The first pair were more problematical. Very interesting – diamina vernetensis did cross my mind, hence my comment - I have had difficulty in locating anything that defines the specific characteristics of vernetensis (comments to this effect on my diamina page) - and what I can find is often contradictory. There were clues pointing slightly away from athalia (the lack of heavy shading around marginal lunule s2 and the discal s1 mark looking slightly key/dumbbell) but the underside did not look particularly good for diamina.

I don’t have books here (and only a laptop and not my home 4K screen) but I’ll have a good look at this when I am back in the UK.

One last comment on the subject of deione - the underside colouring is distinctly more reddish than athalia.

Roger

None of you need to apologise at all for "hijacking" my thread. Quite the opposite. I think the advice/debate/conversation precisely highlights the joys and frustrations of butterflying.

The joys of spotting potentially new species, and/or learning to identify species by very specific and complicated characteristics.

The frustrations of misidentification in the field, and also when at home studying the photos!!! And the occasional joy of finding an unexpected butterfly in a photo you took ages ago!

The learning and research is part of the enjoyment, and this enjoyment doesn't just start and end whilst away. It continues the whole year round as we review our previous trips and plan for the next ones!

Thanks again to both of you for sharing your expertise and experience. It really is very appreciated.

Agree with all that, Paul. Sometimes it's very difficult to be sure of a definitive identification, and it's good to have people like Roger & Guy around to assist.

selbypaul wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:46 pm The frustrations of misidentification in the field, and also when at home studying the photos!!! And the occasional joy of finding an unexpected butterfly in a photo you took ages ago!

One anecdote, in the context of identification. Normally, it’s a case of someone thinking a common butterfly is a rare species, but not always.

Around 1998, on holiday in the Bordeaux region, I took a photo with my old film camera of what I thought was a good old English-type Ringlet (Aphantopus hyperantus). About five years later, looking though these old photos, I thought those rings look rather large and then I realised it was a False Ringlet (Coenonympha oedippus), one of the rarest and most localised species in France. Aaargh!

I relayed this story to friends in the butterfly world, Guy included, and they shared the amusement.

Roger

Roger Gibbons wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:49 am
One anecdote, in the context of identification. Normally, it’s a case of someone thinking a common butterfly is a rare species, but not always.

Around 1998, on holiday in the Bordeaux region, I took a photo with my old film camera of what I thought was a good old English-type Ringlet (Aphantopus hyperantus). About five years later, looking though these old photos, I thought those rings look rather large and then I realised it was a False Ringlet (Coenonympha oedippus), one of the rarest and most localised species in France. Aaargh!

I relayed this story to friends in the butterfly world, Guy included, and they shared the amusement.

Roger

That's a classic Roger!

On the 7th July I was meant to be flying out to the Balkans for a two week, three country trip with Wild Echo. I'd actually originally booked it in 2019 for 2020. Covid put paid to 2020 and 2021. Sadly, this year was also cancelled at short notice because four of the five people booked on the trip cancelled with only six weeks to go.

With nearly all the other wildlife holidays for summer 2022 booked up, and those that did have places not working for me in terms of work commitments, I was worried that my butterfly spotting for 2022 was over.

Thankfully, however, Greenwings and David Moore saved the day. David had first mentioned the potential to do a high summer central French Pyrenees recce trip to me in October 2021. So when the Wild Echo cancellation came through, thankfully David offered the potential lifeline. Even this wasn't without its hiccups. A fortnight before I was due to fly out, British Airways cancelled my return flight. Cue a bit of a scramble to find an alternative flight at the same time many other people were doing the same. It worked out fine in the end.

Anyhow, on 12th July I caught the very early morning flight from Heathrow to Toulouse, where David picked both me and Andrew Lipczynski up, and drove the two hours to our hotel for the week in Argeles-Gazost. Also joining us on the recce trip was John Vergo. The forecast for the week was hot and dry, and the anticipation for what we might see during the week was high...!

Off you go, Paul. Don't wait for me...it'll be September before I have time to do this one!

Lol - I was trying not to steal your thunder David, I left it three weeks!

It'll take me almost that long to write up the French Alps!! Look forward to seeing what I've already seen, Paul...if you know what I mean.

Our first day butterflying dawned warm with clear blue skies, as was forecast for the whole week.

Our first site was Lac des Gloriettes. We did an anticlockwise loop around the reservoir itself, spending a good 90 minutes at the southern end of the lake. This proved to be an excellent site, most notably allowing us good views of both Gavarnie Ringlet (Erebia gorgone) and Gavarnie Blue (Agriades pyrenaicus), two of the main target species for the week. We also saw good numbers of Piedmont Ringlet (Erebia meolans), Bright Eyed Ringlet (Erebia oeme), Western Brassy Ringlet (Erebia arvernensis) and Pyrenees Brassy Ringlet (Erebia rondoui), species we’d be chasing all week hoping for even rarer Erebia. But it was a good trial run for trying to learn the behaviour and in-flight identification characteristics. There were a good number of Fritillary and Blue species too, notably Provencal Fritillary (Melitaea deione), Spotted Fritillary (Melitaea didyma), Dark Green Fritillary (Argynnis aglaja), Common Blue (Polyommatus icarus), Eros Blue (Polyommatus eros), Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas). Also, a small number of Apollo (Parnassius apollo) were seen. As we got back to the car park, we were distracted by a very dark Erebia individual which had no colour or occilli of any sort on either side. After a bit of confusion we realised it was the Pyrenees form of Yellow Spotted Ringlet (Erebia manto form constans).

As lunchtime approached, we drove the small distance down the road to where it crosses the Gave de Heas river. This proved to be another good spot, the flowery roadside verges being host to a good number of species, including Marbled Fritillary, Chalkhill Blue (Lysandra coridon), a single tatty Large Blue (Phengaris arion) and a large number of Silver Washed Fritillary (Argynnis paphia). We then drove a relatively long distance to Col de Tentes, where False Dewy Ringlet (Erebia sthennyo) has historically been seen. The scenery was spectacular and beautiful, but the meadows had been grazed to within an inch of their lives. Virtually no flowering plants, and the grass very short. As a consequence, there were very few Erebia of any species seen, albeit I did see my first Mountain Ringlet (Erebia epiphron) of the week. We did try a bit lower down near the Gavarnie-Gedre Ski Station. On a steep scree slope I saw by eye what may have been a Lefebvre’s Ringlet (Erebia lefebvre). But I cannot be sure.

It was time to drive back to the hotel, with having personally seen a creditable 49 species over the course of the day, including two brand new species. A great start to the week.

On our second full day, our first visit was to Col du Tourmalet. Again there were stunning views. On the higher dustier track we briefly walked up, we saw some more Gavarnie Ringlet (Erebia gorgone). We then walked down the main track which takes you eventually to Pic du Midi de Bigorre. According to the information that David had, Lefebvre’s Ringlet (Erebia lefebvre) was near guaranteed here. We walked about halfway.

On the way out, some of the track and slopes were in the shade, so few species of any family were seen. However, on the way back there were much more. Looking down the slopes, tens of Erebia were quartering up and down. But the slopes were really steep, so it would have been dangerous to go chasing them. There were a number of darker looking individuals, but any time any stopped for long enough to identification, all turned out to be Piedmont Ringlet (Erebia meolans).

One bonus was we saw our first Shepherd’s Fritillary (Boloria pales) of the week. They were only in one small patch, but there seemed to be a decent colony of them. We also saw one of only two Mountain Clouded Yellow (Colias phicomone) that we saw all week. For lunch, we stopped at the vast car park at Regie Intercommunale du Tourmalet, before spending the afternoon nearby. Here we were looking for Water Ringlet (Erebia pronoe), another location tip David had. Again, much of the habitat had been significantly overgrazed. Generally, only the steep rocky sides of the river had plants still in flower, and this is where all the butterflies tended to be concentrated. Species seen included High Brown Fritillary (Argynnis adippe), Pearl Bordered Fritillary (Boloria euphrosyne), Marbled Fritillary (Brenthis daphne), Adonis Blue (Lysandra bellargus), Scarce Copper (Lycaena virgaureae) and Silver Spotted Skipper (Hesperia comma).

With better views than the day before we also saw Yellow Spotted Ringlet (Erebia manto form constans). However, a good number had the vestigial pale spots which are described in the guides, so much closer to the nominate form. After nearly three hours of searching though, no Water Ringlet were seen. Even with the early season, were we still too early for it?

Despite the disappointment of not seeing the two target species for the day, 46 species were seen by myself, a good chunk of which were different to the previous days list.