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I've found another photo of another individual at the same site and the two were interacting. I think this one looks more typical for carlinae. Please comment.

I would not say it was typical for carlinae, but almost certainly is, and more clearly so than the last one (if indeed that was carlinae).

Typical carlinae has a clearly C shaped upf cell spot. It is usually unmistakeable. It is also quite common in the Alpes.

This I would say is typical:

The problem is, most butterfly-watchers don't kill specimens and examine the genitalia (I mean, I'm glad they don't - I'm happy to live with the ID problems ). For that reason, we only publish photos that match the accepted criteria well, those being the ones we are sure of. The rest we leave rotting on computer disks, labelled Pyrgus sp. SO, I have no idea if I've seen carlinae without a 'c' mark, because this is one of the important criteria I use to call something carlinae. On the other hand, I've seen various shapes of 'c', so there's nothing in principle to rule out a completely flat one. Wing markings like this are only incidental, not essential, to the species.

Here is a selection of carlinae from my part of Switzerland:













... I could go on - I have dozens. There is enormous variation in the 'c' mark there, but I haven't included individuals where the variation was such that the 'c' was not recognisable, for the reasons above.

I agree with Roger - your butterfly is most likely carlinae - and someone needs to come up with a true edf for the species ('edf' is a term invented by myself and Matt, standing for 'exclusive diagnostic feature' - i.e., something that if present definitively nails the species!).

Guy

Thanks gents, very enlightening. I see the odd C mark that looks vaguely similar to my last photo in your collection Guy if not identical.

We definitely need some EDF's for a few species. Would make life easier but possibly not so much fun and definitely agree on not killing and cutting up.

Someone could set up a lab to do DNA testing. A small piece of wing cutting would suffice negating the need for killing. I still prefer trial and error through observation and these entertaining forums though.

Thanks Guy - that explains completely why my river bank Pyrgus on Tuesday 14th June was carlinae!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5350

It clearly has the 'c' shaped cell spot. At the time it was noticably large too.

Cheers

Lee

I should perhaps have described the one I posted earlier as “classic” rather than typical, as most do not conform perfectly to this classic pattern.

Yours was easy to ID, Lee, no real doubt here.

They are allegedly closely related to Cinquefoil Skipper (Pyrgus cirsii) which is very reddish especially on the underside. Carlinae is (or was, in many earlier works) considered to be the upland form of cirsii. So carlinae is often a rather warm brown colour, but not always. Here is one I took earlier this year at 2000m in the Alpes de Haute Provence, which I believe to be carlinae.
As is often the case, the ID is based on the fact that it looks less unlike classic (carlinae) than anything else. i.e. if it isn't carlinae, I can't imagine what it could be. ID is sometimes based on the balance of probablilities than beyond all reasonable doubt, but I consider it important to add the degree of doubt to any ID.

Thanks again, Roger.

I have more Pyrgus to follow....!

Cheers

Lee