I don't want to hijack another topic!

[Jack Harrison]

That cheeky blighter Felix wrote:

Do you mean 'ex-pert' as in 'ex' = formerly and 'pert' = sprightly; lively; vivacious... ?

Sadly true, at least as far as the body is concerned. The brain isn't too bad though (but doubtless other people on this group would beg to differ).

My 18 year-old daughter gave me "Why is E = mc²?" by Professors Brian Cox & Jeff Forshaw for my 72nd birthday earlier in the month (WHICH MAY I REMIND PEOPLE, YOU ALL FORGOT), so she obviously appreciates her aged father's brain power. So far I have understood what the "=" symbol means, but am struggling beyond that Seriously, it's a very readable book.

Jack

[Susie]

Welcome Liz, lovely to have you here.

[Gibster]

So far on this thread alone, individual's observations of the tartan argus and the white letter hairstreak are at odds with the text.

So when is the definitive UKButterfly Guide due out???

[Rogerdodge]

Unfortunately as you say, certain publications tend to encourage people to only explore sites where mature wych elm flourishes. In fact, speaking with a colleague, more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page. The message, as you say, is to trust your own observations..!

I am certainly not coming out of the woodwork (I don't think I have ever been IN the woodwork), but shortly after the book in question was published, I posted on this site that the information that HBF is extinct on Exmoor is untrue.
It is, however, still a stonking good book, and perhaps these errors are a deliberate ploy to sell lots of copies of the corrected second edition? (Tongue firmly in cheek)

[Jack Harrison]

Liz wrote:

There is Kidney Vetch on the steep embankment M25/M1 junction currently been widened - people have looked
There is Kidney Vetch on the A41 at Hemel Hempstead - people have looked
Kidney Vetch was included in the Baldock bypass seeding - it is difficult to look but this is where we hope they might turn up.

Were the searches for adults or eggs? I ask because I have in the past found eggs on Kidney Vetch. However my recent observations of adults at Totternhoe Quarry have surprisingly they are found in greatest concentrations AWAY from Kidney Vetch. In fact, at Tottenhoe I have never found Kidney Vetch plants in any great quantity but the plants might be more numerous on the steep inaccessible quarry cliffs – I don’t know.

The Baldock by-pass was spectacularly yellow at first but last season other plants had begun to crowd out the Kidney Vetch but I’m sure there are plenty of plants remaining.

Jack

[Pete Eeles]

The book is of course excellent, but people should feel that they can stand up and say "actually my own observations contradict this text" without fear of being criticised themselves for daring to disagree with the 'experts'.

Absolutely. But that's very different from saying "more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page"

Cheers,

- Pete

Well, I do talk to people despite my anti-social disposition, and people do tell me of 'problems' that they have found in the text. Particularly individuals who are specialists in particular species or families. Perhaps it's the "people are coming out" phrase that is throwing you?

Gibster says that he's not coming out of the woodwork, but he has done exactly what I was referring to. So far on this thread alone, individual's observations of the tartan argus and the white letter hairstreak are at odds with the text.

Felix.

Some superb threads of late! So on another very important topic - how should we capture such findings? Seems to me that many observations are getting lost in personal diaries and correspondence. How can UKB help? All thoughts welcome!

EDIT: How about a "report an observation" field on each species page? This can then get validated and absorbed into the main species text? Just a thought.

Cheers,

- Pete

[millerd]

...my recent observations of adults at Totternhoe Quarry have surprisingly they are found in greatest concentrations AWAY from Kidney Vetch. In fact, at Tottenhoe I have never found Kidney Vetch plants in any great quantity but the plants might be more numerous on the steep inaccessible quarry cliffs – I don’t know.
Jack

I have to agree with Jack - this year especially I had trouble finding a single kidney vetch plant at Totternhoe, yet the first brood certainly were reasonably abundant there.

Roadside verges are worth a look. The northern stretch of the Southam Bypass in Warwickshire has abundant kidney vetch on suitably poor, thin limestone soil. The nearby quarries definitely hold Small Blue colonies. I stopped in a convenient layby in June this year, wandered up the bank, and within two minutes had seen a Small Blue. With luck they will gain a toehold in this typically modern environment and spread with the vetch down the length of the bypass.

Paradoxically, motorways can provide lengthy continuous wildlife corridors through the countryside, protected from any further development. So can railways (though disused ones become overgrown). My children have Red Kite counting competitions as we trundle up and down the M40...

Dave

[Jack Harrison]

I was drafting a reply when an incident occurred. I was using a spare laptop in the kitchen area (so I can be sociable with my wife as she slaves away – she knows her role in life!) The chair on which I was sitting – already slightly damaged – collapsed in a heap. Once it was established that I was unhurt, I was LAUGHED AT by wife and offspring! Appalling lack of respect for the elderly.

Anyway, as I was saying: Dave wrote:

I have to agree with Jack

As if that is unusual. Thanks Dave!

But Dave redeemed himself with:

My children have Red Kite counting competitions as we trundle up and down the M40....

I love that. Hope the driver doesn’t join in as well.

Jack

[Liz Goodyear]

There a lot different issues being discussed under this topic so I think it will get confusing..........

I wouldn't wish to criticise any author but we just have to mindful, that mistakes are made, new information is available and let everyone try and think for themselves. I am very naughty as I do little reading (I don't have time/lazy), whereas AM does. I therefore learn from simple experience and observation but also then in discussion with AM - we bounce ideas, we discuss and we also disagree. We then develop our own opinions and sometimes that is at odds with the experts.

How to put our experiences together so a concise document is available and possibly published is a difficult one - I leave that to Pete - but is worthwhile.

Liz

[Pete Eeles]

There a lot different issues being discussed under this topic so I think it will get confusing..........

I wouldn't wish to criticise any author but we just have to mindful, that mistakes are made, new information is available and let everyone try and think for themselves. I am very naughty as I do little reading (I don't have time/lazy), whereas AM does. I therefore learn from simple experience and observation but also then in discussion with AM - we bounce ideas, we discuss and we also disagree. We then develop our own opinions and sometimes that is at odds with the experts.

How to put our experiences together so a concise document is available and possibly published is a difficult one - I leave that to Pete - but is worthwhile.

Liz

Thanks for the encouragement, Liz - sounds like a Christmas project!

I think we need to remember that any publication represents a "point in time" to which new discoveries can't be retrofitted. Now, a website is a completely different kettle of fish

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

Some superb threads of late! So on another very important topic - how should we capture such findings? Seems to me that many observations are getting lost in personal diaries and correspondence. How can UKB help? All thoughts welcome!

The mechanism is already there, or rather it has never gone away!

Historically these observations (no matter how minor) were always reported in the etomological journals. These journals still exist and are crying out for original material!

Journals such as the AES Bulletin, Atropos, The Entomologist's Record, The Entomologist's Monthly Magazine, they're all still full of peoples every day observations, notes, views and opinions. If anyone has anything of note to share, no matter how insignificant it may seem to them, there are other enthusiasts (and indeed professionals) who are clamouring to know about it.

So come on people, put pen to paper (or digit to keyboard) and get your observations published!

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

Some superb threads of late! So on another very important topic - how should we capture such findings? Seems to me that many observations are getting lost in personal diaries and correspondence. How can UKB help? All thoughts welcome!

The mechanism is already there, or rather it has never gone away!

Historically these observations (no matter how minor) were always reported in the etomological journals. These journals still exist and are crying out for original material!

Journals such as the AES Bulletin, Atropos, The Entomologist's Record, The Entomologist's Monthly Magazine, they're all still full of peoples every day observations, notes, views and opinions. If anyone has anything of note to share, no matter how insignificant it may seem to them, there are other enthusiasts (and indeed professionals) who are clamouring to know about it.

So come on people, put pen to paper (or digit to keyboard) and get your observations published!

Felix.

So let me play devil's advocate - how does that help members on these forums get visibility of these observations without forking out a fortune in subscriptions?

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

It doesn't.

But the subs aren't exactly a fortune! I dunno, music, films, printed media... ...doesn't anyone like to pay for anything anymore?

[Pete Eeles]

It doesn't.

But the subs aren't exactly a fortune! I dunno, music, films, printed media... ...doesn't anyone like to pay for anything anymore?

I admire the honesty Seriously - with all of the information spread across several publications (most of which, by the way, I subscribe to), really doesn't help "get the word out" to encourage others to validate and expand on observations, does it? Personally, I think that's a real shame and an opportunity missed.

I wonder if the various publications would support a brief summary being published on the web (with a reference to their papers to encourage potential subscribers) to simply get the "highlights" made available.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

It doesn't.

But the subs aren't exactly a fortune! I dunno, music, films, printed media... ...doesn't anyone like to pay for anything anymore?

I admire the honesty Seriously - with all of the information spread across several publications (most of which, by the way, I subscribe to), really doesn't help "get the word out" to encourage others to validate and expand on observations, does it? Personally, I think that's a real shame and an opportunity missed.

I wonder if the various publications would support a brief summary being published on the web (with a reference to their papers to encourage potential subscribers) to simply get the "highlights" made available.

Cheers,

- Pete

I kind of disagree... by being published they are getting 'the word out', rather than (as you put it) "many observations are getting lost in personal diaries and correspondence".

AND, once in print the information is there for good. I still refer to journals and bulletins from runs which I have that date back to the 19th century. And those that I do not have, I can always consult them in a library (another antiquated concept no doubt )

Besides, anyone who joins the Amateur Entomologist's Society, British Entomological & Natural History Society, etc. get the relevant journal for FREE, and a lot more besides (field trips, work shops, access to reference collections, subject matter experts, libraries etc etc.).

The only thing that surprises me, considering the level of interest (nay obsession!) that so many UKBers have in butterflies and related matters, is that so few appear to be AES members.

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

I understand completely. In fact, I understand more than most now that I fork out more than £100 each year to get hold of the publications you put me on to a while back, Felix

I just find it difficult to reconcile the philosophy under which UKB is run (openness, sharing of information and fostering an interest) with the notion of "burying" the same community's observations in journals that members (of that same community) may not be able to afford and therefore access.

On a separate note, the sooner these journals get "web enabled" the better. Traversing them in "dead tree format" is an absolute nightmare!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

the sooner these journals get "web enabled" the better. Traversing them in "dead tree format" is an absolute nightmare!

That's your opinion I much prefer print on paper (or 'dead tree format' as you emotively put it ). An A5 or there abouts sized publication is a handy pocket size, and it's far more friendly to take up to the bathroom with you first thing in the morning. Much better than a chilly lap top!!

In all seriousness, I don't disagree with what you say, BUT do you not think that the days of this sort of free-for-all-information are numbered? The major newspapers shall shortly be charging a subscription for their on-line content, and I am fairly certain that the publications cited above will also charge to access their content, as indeed do a significant number of specialist periodicals already.

So you'll still have to pay something for the content and rightly so, these groups have to cover their costs! Just because something is on-line why is there an expectation that it should be free?? those days are numbered.

Felix.
Ps. Out of interest do you really prefer the experience of reading something on a glaring PC screen than printed on printed?

[Pete Eeles]

the sooner these journals get "web enabled" the better. Traversing them in "dead tree format" is an absolute nightmare!

That's your opinion I much prefer print on paper (or 'dead tree format' as you emotively put it ). An A5 or there abouts sized publication is a handy pocket size, and it's far more friendly to take up to the bathroom with you first thing in the morning. Much better than a chilly lap top!!

One significant advantage is that you can search across articles if they're in electronic format - that's what I meant by "traversing" them. And my iPad case is nice and warm

In all seriousness, I don't disagree with what you say, BUT do you not think that the days of this sort of free-for-all-information are numbered? The major newspapers shall shortly be charging a subscription for their on-line content, and I am fairly certain that the publications cited above will also charge to access their content, as indeed do a significant number of specialist periodicals already. So you'll still have to pay something for the content and rightly so, these groups have to cover their costs! Just because something is on-line why is there an expectation that it should be free?? those days are numbered.

I understand that research (which is subsequently funded), editing and publishing costs money and that subscriptions are the mechanism to recoup these costs. Rightly so. But I'm not suggesting that everything become free. I'm simply responding to your suggestion that folks should get their observations published and I think that would be a shame if that was the only place where such observations could be found. Perhaps the conclusion is that we could capture observations on UKB *and* get them published (in more detail) to reach the widest audience possible.

Ps. Out of interest do you really prefer the experience of reading something on a glaring PC screen than printed on printed?

I think both have advantages and disadvantages. The jury is out in the Eeles household

Cheers,

- Pete

[Lee Hurrell]

My children have Red Kite counting competitions as we trundle up and down the M40...

I do that now!

Cheers

Lee

[Piers]

Perhaps the conclusion is that we could capture observations on UKB *and* get them published (in more detail) to reach the widest audience possible.

Now you're talking, I am quite into this idea. Fancy a New Year drink to discuss? you owe me a beer or two anyway...

Felix.