www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

NickB wrote:I wonder if we are all religiously going to rate each of the potential 40-50 images from 1-10? And not change our minds
Perhaps if everyone started with 1 as the default....
(... at least I may end up with some votes..... )
...and encourage us to start....
N

I think different individuals will vote in different ways. I doubt that anyone would rate all images. I suspect that most people will vote for their top 10 (say), but use a spread of ratings - from, say, 10 to 5 or 6. But I guess this is all part of the exercise. Until we know better, members will have to make their own minds up on how to vote.

Cheers,

- Pete

I have noticed that already in August 2009 competition, there are votes on every image and some comments on a few. To stop people basing their judgements when they see comments or whatever until voting ends, is there a way of disabling comments until voting is over? I thought the comeptition (enteries) does not end until tomorrow, thern voting, so why are there votes and comments now?

Because I screwed up and didn't disable commenting and rating for August when I updated the gallery mechanism. Anyway - I hope most members will ignore those anyway, and come to their own conclusions, when we actually get to vote (tomorrow) using the old mechanism.

You'll see that you can't comment or rate for September entries. The new voting mechanism comes into effect for the September entries - but not for August.

Cheers,

- Pete

I am not totally clear how the voting procedure will work but I really am very much in favour of anonymity of entries.

May I suggest that the final tally lists only first, second and third? This will avoid the embarrassment that I (and of course Nick) feel each month when we realise that (under the present system) we have received “nul points”. I would rather not know just how badly I have failed

Jack

Hi Jack,

A minimal explanation is on this page: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/gallery_guidelines.php

Cheers,

- Pete

I had seen that but it leaves many questions unanswered.

To vote, simply click on the rating associated with any photo you would like to vote for and give it between 1 and 10 points.

So presumably if I think a particular photo is very poor, then I don’t give that photo a vote and it automatically gets a zero from me.

Winners are announced...

First, second and third ... or what? I am certainly against ranking every entry down to the last.

The general idea sounds good, but a lot of fine tuning is needed before going “live”. I suggest a dummy run from an earlier month that has already been decided so that we can get the idea of the voting methods and iron out the bugs in the system.

Jack

jackharr wrote:So presumably if I think a particular photo is very poor, then I don’t give that photo a vote and it automatically gets a zero from me.

Correct.

jackharr wrote:Winners are announced... First, second and third ... or what? I am certainly against ranking every entry down to the last.

The announcement will be the first 3. However, it will be possible to see all of the points assigned to any given image.

jackharr wrote:The general idea sounds good, but a lot of fine tuning is needed before going “live”.

Surely that remains to be seen.

jackharr wrote:I suggest a dummy run from an earlier month that has already been decided so that we can get the idea of the voting methods and iron out the bugs in the system.

Sounds good. Please suggest a month. Perhaps we could do August 2009 while it's fresh in everyone's mind (and even though some ratings have already been given)

Cheers,

- Pete

re dummy run:

Perhaps we could do August 2009 while it's fresh in everyone's mind

Doesn't really matter but I would rather see a month that isn't fresh in peoples minds so that there are no pre-conceived thoughts. Any month from 2008 would be better.

Jack

Okey dokey. I suggest we start on 21st September, after the current competition has finished - and aiming to end by 30th September.

We can then discuss refinements before 5th October.

Cheers,

- Pete

Not sure if August 09 is the right one to do now Pete, looks like a few have jumped the gun. So far the results from the ratings don't bare much resemblance to the votes, maybe it will be better when its anonymous.

Gruditch

Gruditch wrote:So far the results from the ratings don't bare much resemblance to the votes,

The voting will be based on the points, not the rating. In which case, it looks ok (almost)!

Cheers,

- Pete

Almost, Fishiee's dropped from a clear leader to 5th.

Gruditch

Is it possible to view the unfolding drama?

Gruditch wrote:Almost, Fishiee's dropped from a clear leader to 5th.

Gruditch

And that's because some members rated the photos before Fishiee's photo had even been posted. Once this gets going properly, people wo't be able to start rating images until all entries are in.

Cheers,

- Pete

I'll give you that, At a glance the average rating looks far more accurate than the points.

Gruditch

Ah, but you could win with one vote, not so good.

Gruditch

Gruditch has just alluded to the problem that I was about to raise.

I have a difficulty with the voting mechanism. It might be because I don’t understand properly but it might be a real weakness in the system.

It has already been confirmed that not rating a picture effectively gives in nul points. Yet it seems that the average rating credited to a picture is only based on those who in fact gave a rating between 1 and 10. Take my own entry for example. I have received 20 points from the five people who thought it worth voting for; I am thus given an average of 4.0. But assuming another 35 people thought my photo was so poor that it didn’t even rate as much as a 1 (so effectively gave it a zero), my total of 20 points should be divided by the 40 people who looked at it. So I should in that case be credited with an average of 0.5. So the score as presently worked out doesn’t mean a lot.

As a further example, if only one person votes for my mate Nick, but gives him a massive 10 points (dream on Nick - but I am open to bribery), he surely wouldn’t rate a 10, that being higher than someone who had been given 50 votes of 9 each time.

I am sure I am being stupid but something needs explaining.

Jack

jackharr wrote:It has already been confirmed that not rating a picture effectively gives in nul points.

Correct.

jackharr wrote:Yet it seems that the average rating credited to a picture is only based on those who in fact gave a rating between 1 and 10.

Correct - which is why this average rating *will not* be used to determine the winners - the total number of points will. If we were to use the average rating, a photo that gets a single 10 will "beat" a photo that gets a hundres 9s. That's just wrong! Therefore - I've suggested that the winner is the one with the most points.

jackharr wrote:Take my own entry for example. I have received 20 points from the five people who thought it worth voting for; I am thus given an average of 4.0. But assuming another 35 people thought my photo was so poor that it didn’t even rate as much as a 1 (so effectively gave it a zero), my total of 20 points should be divided by the 40 people who looked at it. So I should in that case be credited with an average of 0.5. So the score as presently worked out doesn’t mean a lot.

Only if you use the average rating as the basis of the scoring - which I've suggested we won't be. Anyway - you end up with the same result, mathematically, whether you add up the number of points or whether you figure out the number of voters and assume that they've given 0 for those photos they've not voted for. I've added a filter that allows you to sort an album based on points.

jackharr wrote:As a further example, if only one person votes for my mate Nick, but gives him a massive 10 points (dream on Nick - but I am open to bribery), he surely wouldn’t rate a 10, that being higher than someone who had been given 50 votes of 9 each time.

See above.

Cheers,

- Pete

Got it. So why publish these "averages" at all?

Jack

jackharr wrote:Got it. So why publish these "averages" at all?

Jack

That's a good question Jack. I'll see if I can supress them for competitions only (it's a general mechanism used everywhere!).

Cheers,

- Pete