Has Matt had a chance to look at the frits yet Guy?
Denise
Hungary 15-23 June.
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Denise
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Padfield
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Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Whoops! Sorry, my parents are here on holiday and I completely forgot to forward the link. I really can't multitask. 
Will do today!
Guy
Will do today!
Guy
Guy's Butterflies: https://www.guypadfield.com
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
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Padfield
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Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Flaming buttocks! I'm so forgetful. But I didn't forget to ask Matt and Tim for their opinions, just to post their answers...
Tim answered quite fully, doing some research, and I hope he won't mind if I take the short cut of quoting him (the references are to Matt's pictures on his site, http://www.eurobutterflies.com/):
I would have to say that britomartis is not a species I have ever had reason to study, so my first reaction was to have a browse in Tolman to see if anything struck me. Which it did, immediately, on the male upperside at least. Not only are the markings beautifully regular and relatively 'straight' on this species but the second row of 'oranges' on upf are an absolutely splendid collection of 6 rounded nuggets of similar size. I was then thrilled to find that Matt's first shot on his website matched this image perfectly. This looks like no other Mellicta to me from this angle. Aurelia just doesn't have this perfection in the markings and the uph of Matt's butterfly is just too 'bright and full' (with dominant orange markings) for aurelia which rapidly becomes 'dull area dominant' as you progress from the margin into the basal region. Britomartis in nonetheless otherwise 'aurelia-like' on uph.
Is there anything in the 'eyes' present on Matt's butterfly upf?
Bearing all this in mind Denise's ups pic is at least a contender for britomartis even if it doesn't fill you with britomatishness like Matt's pic does. Her uns selection also have tones in the margins which make me wonder if it's not something I'm not familiar with.
Matt was of the opinion that it is impossible to be certain without looking at their willies, and said of the distinction between aurelia and britomartis:
I'm afraid that me, and people I've talked to about these two species, say they have never found a distinguishing feature to separate them. The palpi feature is laughed at every time I mention it. The only slight suggestion of separation without referring to knobs is habitat. This is usually dry for both species, but britomartis does seem to require some damp parts. For example a small moist gulley where a stream may run after rains... Aurelia doesn't seem linked to this at all, although its presence doesn't exclude aurelia either. The species can fly together, but britomartis is much less frequent in Romania at least.
The problem is, I can’t find anything absolutely conclusive to say they’re not both athalia. If they’re not, then I’d incline towards britomartis, but this is the sort of thing one either needs to establish by gooly-goggling or by using the knowledge of local experts who’ve already done the gooly-goggling, and by taking consideration of the exact location, habitat &c..
After all this time, I haven’t been that much help, have I?
Guy
Tim answered quite fully, doing some research, and I hope he won't mind if I take the short cut of quoting him (the references are to Matt's pictures on his site, http://www.eurobutterflies.com/):
I would have to say that britomartis is not a species I have ever had reason to study, so my first reaction was to have a browse in Tolman to see if anything struck me. Which it did, immediately, on the male upperside at least. Not only are the markings beautifully regular and relatively 'straight' on this species but the second row of 'oranges' on upf are an absolutely splendid collection of 6 rounded nuggets of similar size. I was then thrilled to find that Matt's first shot on his website matched this image perfectly. This looks like no other Mellicta to me from this angle. Aurelia just doesn't have this perfection in the markings and the uph of Matt's butterfly is just too 'bright and full' (with dominant orange markings) for aurelia which rapidly becomes 'dull area dominant' as you progress from the margin into the basal region. Britomartis in nonetheless otherwise 'aurelia-like' on uph.
Is there anything in the 'eyes' present on Matt's butterfly upf?
Bearing all this in mind Denise's ups pic is at least a contender for britomartis even if it doesn't fill you with britomatishness like Matt's pic does. Her uns selection also have tones in the margins which make me wonder if it's not something I'm not familiar with.
Matt was of the opinion that it is impossible to be certain without looking at their willies, and said of the distinction between aurelia and britomartis:
I'm afraid that me, and people I've talked to about these two species, say they have never found a distinguishing feature to separate them. The palpi feature is laughed at every time I mention it. The only slight suggestion of separation without referring to knobs is habitat. This is usually dry for both species, but britomartis does seem to require some damp parts. For example a small moist gulley where a stream may run after rains... Aurelia doesn't seem linked to this at all, although its presence doesn't exclude aurelia either. The species can fly together, but britomartis is much less frequent in Romania at least.
The problem is, I can’t find anything absolutely conclusive to say they’re not both athalia. If they’re not, then I’d incline towards britomartis, but this is the sort of thing one either needs to establish by gooly-goggling or by using the knowledge of local experts who’ve already done the gooly-goggling, and by taking consideration of the exact location, habitat &c..
After all this time, I haven’t been that much help, have I?
Guy
Guy's Butterflies: https://www.guypadfield.com
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
No that's great Guy, thank you for taking the time and your friends help, to try and sort it out.
I didn't know that, hu..hum private parts were so important.
The three species were seen regularly right outside our hotel, which was in the middle of no-where, on a steep-ish slope with limestone karst at the top and a gully that fills with water after it rains at the bottom, and a beautiful meadow filled with wild flowers in the middle. We were right on the border with Slovakia and according to the Collins book that I have, both species are present in the area.
Phew, I might just have to go back and do it all again, just to be sure. I'm not so keen on the willy bit though.
Denise
I didn't know that, hu..hum private parts were so important.
The three species were seen regularly right outside our hotel, which was in the middle of no-where, on a steep-ish slope with limestone karst at the top and a gully that fills with water after it rains at the bottom, and a beautiful meadow filled with wild flowers in the middle. We were right on the border with Slovakia and according to the Collins book that I have, both species are present in the area.
Phew, I might just have to go back and do it all again, just to be sure. I'm not so keen on the willy bit though.
Denise
Denise