Large Blue

[Padfield]

More good news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.j ... fly115.xml

Guy

[Piers]

Allow me to play devil's advocate a moment...


I wouldn't like to imagine how much time, money, effort and resources have been pumped into the introduction of an alien subspecies to this country over the last 25 years or so.

Although the Large Blue project is always referred to as a reintroduction it is in fact nothing of the sort. The English race of the Large Blue became extinct in 1979, never to return. A closely related race from Sweden has (at considerable expense and effort) been introduced into Britain in an attempt to replace that which has been lost. The self indulgent dalliance of a small group of individuals desperate to alleviate the feelings of guilt at having acted 'too little too late' in their attempts to save the nominate form the the Large Blue butterfly from extinction.

Which is all well and good. However, does no one think that while some of our native species continue to decline at an alarming (and in certain cases inexplicable) rate; this time, money and energy would be better appropriated in trying to salvage our remaining threatened invertebrate fauna before we indulge in the luxury of introducing an alien race of an insect that shall require constant management if it is to survive here at all.

Perhaps when we have successfully secured the future of our threatened native species we shall be able to justify such extravagant indulgences.

Just a thought...

Felix.

[Padfield]

I've asked this before, but no one answered: is it possible enough DNA exists in stored British large blue material to clone this race (Steven Spielberg could make a film about it and call it 'Cotswold Park'), or is all the material dried out and useless?

Guy

[Piers]

Hmph. There's me trying to provoke an argument and someone agrees with me!

Although having said that I must confess to not a little cynicism regarding the 'Large Blue Project'. It seems to have the air of a lot of smug faces and self congratulatory back patting while species such as the High Brown Fritillary continue to decline and really could do with that sort of effort and resource.

I don't really know enough about genetic engineering to comment on the viability of genetic material in old set Large Blue specimens, but it is also something that I too have mused over. When the Great Auk once again waddles across Funk Island hopefully someone can then have a look at the Large Blue.

Felix.

[Sylvie_h]

Hi Felix,

I totally agree with you. Conservation is definitively better than re-introduction!!
Sylvie

[Rogerdodge]

Felix
You get no argument from me.
I have been to see introduced Large Blue a few times, and have enjoyed a special sight, but I still get the nagging feeling that it may be better to go to Sweden to see a Swedish buterfly.
It would have been good to see more time/energy spent on a struggling, genuinely British butterfly.

Roger

[Piers]

Hi Roger.

Well I have to say that this is quite an unexpected response so far.

It would be interesting to see a poll of UK Butterflies members opinions around this subject, i.e. Would the time, money and energy have been put to better use on a struggling British species.

The results could then be sent to Butterfly Conservation. It might well just raise a few eyebrows...

Still, it can't be denied: the Large Blue on Collard Hill does present a wonderful photo opportunity for the ubiquitous Titchmarsh.

Felix.

Ps: I agree with you regarding the sight of Large Blues on Collard Hill - it is quite a spectacle, but like you say - if I wanted to see a Swedish butterfly I could always go to Sweden!

[roundwood123]

I cant help thinking that any species of animal that wanders off down an evolutionary cul-de-sac like the Large Blue is bound to be under threat at some point, how many species of plant,insect,bird etc have we lost in the past, before records began.
It would be interesting to know what species of butterfly were in the British Isles 1000 years ago?.
Steve.

[Hart, Richard]

I am a non-technical person. The comment “It would have been good to see more time/energy spent on a struggling, genuinely British butterfly.” raises a related point. We are spending a lot of effort supporting animals which are “genuinely British”, but are not restricted to the UK. My Father had a book about Butterflies (South) that reported (roughly) that a Camberwell beauty had been seen in Peckham in 1884 or something, leaving me convinced (60 years ago) that to see a Camberwell Beauty was a very big deal, and that Peckham was the place to see them. This lasted until my wife and I happened upon lots of them in the South of France. Some of these struggling “genuinely British” species may be just on the limits of their range, and are relatively numerous on the other side of the Channel. Isn’t the High Brown Fritillary an example?
I am happy that we are spending the effort. I was delighted when asked to help at Collard Hill, and on a Duke site. I wonder whether the value of the Large Blue work is that it shows that maintaining a suitable habitat may require detailed knowledge, but that the management itself is not rocket science: as I understand it, the main requirement is to have resources to arrange suitable grazing, suitably timed. In addition, I feel enormously encouraged when scrub bashing, that this story so far is a dramatic success story.

[Gruditch]

Well Richard I for one will be glad of your time and effort, when I go to photograph the Large Blue later in the year
The others are talking c@@p as usual

Gruditch

[Rogerdodge]

Well Richard I for one will be glad of your time and effort, when I go to photograph the Large Blue later in the year
THe others are talking c@@p as usual

Gary
I shall be with you on the hill, but I shall be grumbling all the same
Roger

[Paul]

OK.. deep breath.. tin hat on...
I'm sorry, but I can never quite work out why we are so obsessed with using butterflies as indicators, as surely all they are indicating is a clear downward spiral ( with a few exceptions).
Surely this is predictable! Are there not many suitable "islands" of suitable habitat, bereft of former butterfly residents, never likely to re-populate naturally due to monoculture deserts, which should be re-populated?
For example, Prees Heath with its sole surviving population of SSB ssp... OK, so one wouldn't want to translocate enough to jeapordize it, but how long will it be before even they are gone, notwithstanding all the wonderful efforts to sustain it? Aren't we just producing "museums" of fragmented countryside, rather than trying to negate the physical barriers peventing natural spread.
Yes.. I understand the genetics arguements, and some arguements already aired with respect to that odd website selling specimens, but aren't we still just letting some of our species collapse???

PS.. I have never, & would never attempt moving these things around, it should be BC centered alone.

[Padfield]

I certainly never expected such an animated response when I innocently posted that news story!

It's worth adding that the large blue is declining in many countries, including our close neighbours Holland and Belgium, and that this is probably not a case of a species at a geographical limit but of one whose very specific habitat requirements have led to its receding generally in the face of man's ever more exploitative use of land. In fact, the genus Maculinea as a whole is in decline - I think all the European species have made the red list.

I wholeheartedly support making space again in the UK for a Maculinea species that need never have died out, even if it involves the compromise of using imported stock. I don't know the areas in question, but I imagine other species enjoy the habitat too (including ants, of course!). I also wholeheartedly support not concreting over the whole of the southern half of England, but I think it is fantasy to suppose that if the UK government did not sponsor the large blue project it would spare another condemned area somewhere else. Gordon Brown in particular is an urban creature who has no understanding of, nor a taste for, wild nature.

I live in one of the rare parts of Europe where large blue is actually common - in July it can be found almost anywhere that wild thyme grows. The reason is simple: there is loads of unspoilt space in Switzerland. This is a wonderful butterfly with a remarkable story to tell and I hope it has a future in the UK too. It would be better if we could recover some of the original gene pool but given that that is probably impossible I'm happy to settle for large blues with funny accents.

Guy

[Piers]

I don't know the areas in question, but I imagine other species enjoy the habitat too

Except the Duke of Burgundy which has been lost from several downland sites in Southern England due (amongst other factors) to the wholesale removal of scrub from the chalk downs, including the Polden Hills where so much of this type of work has been done to support the Swedish Large Blue!

It's an impossible problem to solve when we have lost the mosaic of interlinked habitats, leaving species unable to simply migrate to adjacent suitable areas when their current habitat becomes unsuitable due to the natural evolution and succession of a habitat.

I wholeheartedly support making space again in the UK for a Maculinea species that need never have died out, even if it involves the compromise of using imported stock

Which brings me back to my original point: wouldn't the tremendous amount of time money and resources be better appropriated elsewhere, i.e. the creation & management of suitable habitats for the indigenous invertebrates that we have left?

Aren't we just producing "museums" of fragmented countryside, rather than trying to negate the physical barriers preventing natural spread

Exactly! But I guess the reason that we preserve little islands like Prees Heath is the vain hope that the situation that you describe can one day be reversed by a more enlightened Government and a change in public attitudes.

We have to cling on to these (?false) hopes because the only other option would be to just hold our hands up, admit defeat, and allow these species and subspecies to become extinct.

Felix.

[Gruditch]

, From what I have read on the Large Blue, it seems that man was, surprise surprise, too blame for its extinction. Therefore its only right that man should make the effort to put things right.

, The successful reintroduction of the Large Blue has brought the BC and other organisations involved some very valuable publicity, and surely this publicity will only benefit the BC and in turn other endangered butterflies.

, A lot of people put a lot of time and effort in to this programme, no doubt for a fair few of them, it was their own free time. Some lessons will surely of been learnt from this success, that may benefit some other species in the future.

, Some of this years Swedish Large Blues will have English parents going back 25 or so generations.

Gruditch

[Piers]

Thanks for the succinct post Gruditch, which really brings the whole debate back around full circle. My response to your statements would be my original post back at the top of the thread!

Felix.

[Gruditch]

And my response to your first post, is the response two posts above this post

Gruditch

[Piers]

Phew! Shall we agree to not quite agree?

There isn't a smiley for 'shake hands'...

Felix.

[Matsukaze]

...the Duke of Burgundy which has been lost from several downland sites in Southern England due (amongst other factors) to the wholesale removal of scrub from the chalk downs, including the Polden Hills where so much of this type of work has been done to support the Swedish Large Blue!

The Duke of Burgundy has indeed become extinct in the Poldens (and is currently being reintroduced there) but was a woodland species there, not known from any of the release sites for the Large Blue, at least since the reintroduction programme began.

There is plenty of scrub on the Poldens Large Blue sites - the Large Blue benefits from scrubby patches, which offer shelter - where work has been done to create new Large Blue habitat there it has been done through removal of (alien) conifer plantations. I understand that removal of scrub has been a problem for Duke of Burgundy in the south-east on chalk, where it has been done to make habitat more suitable for Adonis Blue and Silver-studded Skipper which were at the time the rarer butterflies.

[Cotswold Cockney]

, Some of this years Swedish Large Blues will have English parents going back 25 or so generations.

Gruditch

How so....? Was 'English/Swedish'' arion stock used to repopulate Swedish localities??

I have read with interest the whole thread. I'm one of those who cannot get to enthused about the reintroduction of Maculinea arion to the UK ~ even if it does now grace some of this insect's former habitats.

Having 'collected' and studied butterflies as a small boy in the 1940s, and lived in the Cotswolds during the 1950s, I saw much evidence with my own observations as to why this butterfly disappeared from our countryside. I also got to know many of the older generation of butterfly enthusiasts back then. Their knowledge was extensive and whilst still a schoolboy, spent time with a number of these old gents in the field and enjoyed the stories they told me about their exploits both here and abroad. Great days gorn forever ... unfortunately.

I returned to the Cotswolds in 1970 after a decade living back in London during the 1960s when London was a good place to live then. No appeal now for numerous reasons.

Last time I saw a wild Large Blue flying in its natural habitat was in 1981 when at about 10,000 feet in a beautiful valley up in the Swiss Mountains. They were numerous and widespread as they once were in the Cotswolds according to those fascinating stories the old gents told me.

During the 1970s, working only from old OS maps I'd accumulated over the years, I visited and assessed all those Cotswold areas and sites I could which showed promise ~ many of which had never been recorded. This had the advantage that I was working with a clean sheet, that is, not relying on old records of localities although my map research revealed all of those as well as some superb ones which had never seen any records and probably never seen an entomologist. When I'd completed my researches, I met and corresponded with John Muggleton who was tasked to do a survey of "Blue Butterflies in Gloucestershire" by IIRC, the local trust as well as others. It was obvious that his reaseaches had not covered all the likely sites and areas. That needed much more time.... many years even.

Why did they disappear ~ Simple reason. Habitat destruction and resulting Increased habitat isolation. Habitat destruction can come in many forms but, neglect, change of management or use were largely responsible, plus even when made aware, landowners were less inclined back then to care about a mere insect. Some of the fine areas of short cropped grassland I knew well in the 1950s are now mature overgrown coppice totally unsuitable for many species now. Modern landowners, from my own direct experience, are much more 'aware' and indeed have sought the expertise of those who can advise on habitat maintenance. Several Gloucestershire landowners had extensive land which is maintained with various aspects of Natural History as a prime objective. Good for them.

I shall not seek to see those 'UK' Large Blues ~ when time allows I'll spend it in my own little strip of land I obtained some years ago and am gradually turning it from neglected farmland into useful habitat it once was many moons ago. Conservationalists do not always have the answers. Some of those responsible for the conservation of the Barn Owl told my cousin she was mistaken when she mentioned seeing a wild one in Gloucestershire. She was not wrong. I saw one on my property last summer. Occasional visitor to my site. I've even seen one within two miles of Gloucester City centre being chased by Rooks and Jackdaws. They are about but nowhere near as frequent as when I was a boy. The open areas are alive with small rodents, Wood Mice mainly so Owls and Kestrels are frequent visitors. Buzzards too are daily visitors as there are Rabbits, and the young rabbits are everywhere at certain times. I've seen Hobbies chasing Swifts nearby and one evening, just around dusk when waiting for another possible siting of a Barn Owl whilst sitting in the car drinking the last of the coffee from my flask after a long hot day, I saw what appeared to be a large Sparrow Hawk flying along the side of the hedge at the bottom of my field. Too small for a Buzzard and too large for a Sparrow Hawk. The hawk flew over my car and pitched up in a large solitary Oak ( Which supports a thriving colony of Purple Hairsteaks ) . After a few seconds the large Hawk dropped with closed wings towards the ground swerving up just in time to avoid hitting the ground and plunged into a large Blackthorn, Rose Briar and Bramble thicket causing an explosion of small birds which were settling down for the night there. It was a Goshawk. What a red letter day for me.

Later that summer, visting an extensive Gloucestershire woodland where as a schoolboy in the mid-1950s I saw my first ever Purple Emperor, and have visited it many times since in the hope of seeing another there ( It is to my continuing chagrin that I've not ever seen a wild Apatura iris in Gloucestershire since ~ not a one.. ), this visit I met one of the owners of the shooting rights there. Had an intersting conversation when I discovered that Goshawks have been breeding there for many years ~ I remember seeing a 'strange' hawk ( strange to my inexperienced schoolboy eyes back then ) which I now know was a Goshawk. It is only a few miles away from 'my' field as the crow, or hawk flies.

So rather than look for alien arion... .. I'll spend time watching the clouds of Marbled Whites, Meadow Browns, Gatekeepers, occasional Ringlets, Small Coppers and Blues and other species breeding in my field ..... Well, why not.. They, like me, are Tru-Brits..... none of your foreign mullarkey ...
.