Be there collectors here?

[robpartridge]

I was impressed when I read Mark Colvin's article entitled Entomological Collections - Their Historic Importance and Relevance in the 21st Century, which is present on Dispar. Here is the opening paragraph:

The aim of this article is to provide what I hope is a balanced and thought-provoking personal view on both the historic importance, and contemporary relevance, of entomological collections and collecting. It is not, by any means, intended to present a position endorsed by any individual or organization, or to encourage collecting without appropriate research based justification or consideration of the Invertebrate Link (Joint Committee for the Conservation of British Invertebrates) code (see sidebar). Rather, its fundamental objective is to enlighten readers in a subject that is frequently controversial, due to a lack of understanding of the reasons for collecting and killing specimens, which consequently generates diverse and conflicting opinions.

It certainly has provoked some thoughts for me. One is, what do other members think? It is a controversial subject but although I have made a quick search, I cannot see where the article has yet been discussed here; if it has, my apologies and could someone point me in the right direction?

Second, are any members of the forum actively involved in collecting themselves? Is the subject so controversial that if they are, they would rather not say?

Third, what might constitute an "appropriate research based justification" for collecting in our present circumstances?

Just a few thoughts on a rather cold and wet Good Friday in Cambridgeshire.

[JohnR]

I am a rabid collector ...... of photographs of both butterflies and moths. Some moths need to be killed in order to be identified, the resultant identification goes to the county recorder. I have some butterfly specimens which unfortunately perished in the greenhouse, these go under the microscope so that I can learn more about their structure.
Sixty years ago my grandfather taught me how to collect and blow birds eggs. Fifty years ago I gave my paltry collection to York Museum. Digital photography more than satisfies any latent desire to be a collector.

I do like collecting cameras

[robpartridge]

Thanks John - I was beginning to think I had mentioned the unmentionable! Obviously photographs are the way to go for the majority of butterfly enthusiasts these days, but I am persuaded by the arguments that DNA studies will become increasingly important in future conservation, and you cannot get that from photos, however good the lens. I have heard it said that some museum curators are concerned that they have no modern material at all to compare with the earlier collections that they hold.

I cannot envisage there ever being the numbers of collectors that there were in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and the impact of collecting small numbers of the commoner species by a small number of people is likely to be negligible - but the specimens they take might have some scientific value in the future.

[jasonbirder]

the impact of collecting small numbers of the commoner species by a small number of people is likely to be negligible

That's why no-one minds me shooting a few of the Chaffinches and Blackbirds that come to my bird table...
I think they look great in my dining room when they're properly set up...

[robpartridge]

I appreciate that it is an emotive subject, but the simple truth is that were you to do such a thing as collect a few Blackbirds and Chaffinches, the effect on the local population would be negligible. No-one is suggesting that butterflies should be taken for display purpose or even for personal gratification in simply owning a drawerful of them; the argument is that to discourage all collecting might actually be counter-productive in terms of conservation science. The potential of DNA as a conservation tool is only now being explored properly - it is in its early stages but Mark Colvin's article has some good examples.

As a birder, you will know how often the authoritative publication British Birds contains scholarly articles in which the thousands of bird specimens held by the BMNH are used to examine the distributions, identifications and origins of species in complex groups. Without that material, the science of ornithology would a poorer one. Insects are actually responding much more quickly to environmental change than birds; all the more reason to ensure that some modern specimens are available to the scientists of the future.

[JohnR]

I appreciate that it is an emotive subject, but the simple truth is that were you to do such a thing as collect a few Blackbirds and Chaffinches, the effect on the local population would be negligible.

Here I must disagree with you. As a lad in Kent I was paid to shoot those pesky Bullfinches that do so much damage to fruit trees. Only now do I know how much damage I did to the population and it wasn't many birds in a season. This winter I was honoured by a pair visiting my bird table for shelled sunflower seeds.

[Jack Harrison]

As a lad in Kent I was paid to shoot those pesky Bullfinches

When my kids were young, I organised a bit of fun shooting at Nymphalids on the buddleia with water pistols. They never hit a single butterfly.

And then as an adult (but do men ever grow up?) in 2011/2012 I lived in NW Norfolk. At the back of the garden was a wood with oaks and Purple Hairstreaks. I would aim Champagne corks (not the real Champagne but Tesco's Cava) at the butterflies. I never hit a single Purple Hairstreak.

Jack

[Tony Moore]

. I never hit a single Purple Hairstreak.

Jack

I'm not surprised - drinking Tesco's Cava .

Tony M.

[robpartridge]

Here I must disagree with you. As a lad in Kent I was paid to shoot those pesky Bullfinches that do so much damage to fruit trees.

I think that the operative word in my earlier post was 'a few'; when Bullfinches were being systematically targeted by orchard owners, more than a few were killed and there will have been some impact on their populations. When the villagers of Whittlesey went out and systematically targeted the Large Copper so that they could be sold to professional collectors, they undoubtedly hastened its demise. But if our friend takes, say, 3 or 4 Chaffinches, the effect on that species' local population will be minimal, just as it would be if he were to take 3 or 4 Small Whites.

There are, of course, other reasons to object to collecting, such as a belief that all life is sacred - but if we claim that as a reason for not allowing the collection of butterflies and moths, we had better be prepared to examine our lives in many other ways. I once attended a public moth-trapping session at which no specimens were to be taken as the organisers frowned upon collecting. When they had packed up and left, I counted at least 20 moths squashed around the area - there were probably more. That's far more than a responsible collector would have taken on a typical evening, I think.

[Rogerdodge]

I appreciate that it is an emotive subject, but the simple truth is that were you to do such a thing as collect a few Blackbirds and Chaffinches, the effect on the local population would be negligible.

Pet cats, of course, do far worse than just "a few" of course.

[David M]

I can understand why some would wish to exterminate creatures deemed to be a pest (I regularly hoover up harvestmen and put ant powder down) but collectors kill butterflies for purely cosmetic reasons and I really don't think that has a place in society anymore.

[monet]

but collectors kill butterflies for purely cosmetic reasons

They do ?

[Gruditch]

If we are talking about collecting butterflies in the UK. Unlike some guy trekking around the Amazon, looking for some yet to be discovered species. I would imagine most UK collectors would be looking for rare aberrations. Looking around the stomach turning stands at the AES. I'm feel sure, that if covering your wall with rare aberrations of dead butterflies is your thing. Then you could pick up any aberration under the sun, for just a few quid. There is no good reason to collect wild butterflies from the British countryside anymore. I agree with Dave, it has no place in society.

Regards Gruditch

[monet]

Maybe everyone should actually read the article mentioned in the very first post in this thread :
Entomological Collections - Their Historic Importance and Relevance in the 21st Century by Mark Colvin
http://www.dispar.org/reference.php?id=92

[Gruditch]

Anyone who has been on these forums for a number of years, has seen this emotive subject come up numerous times. By now we all know the historical importance of museum collections. We would also understand should a few butterflies from a colony need to be sacrificed for an authorised scientific study. And yeas I have read the article, thanks monet.

But my answer to the question in the original post.

Second, are any members of the forum actively involved in collecting themselves? Is the subject so controversial that if they are, they would rather not say?

It, and they have no place in society.

Regards Gruditch

[jasonbirder]

Whilst its Dragonflies - not Butterflies...it's a recent incident and i think this example gives everyone an insight into the true mindset of the collector...

Southern Migrant hawker is an exceptionally rare vagrant to the UK...and up till a small influx in 2010 had only been recorded on 4 occasions in the UK...

The Small influx comprised a number of pairs that were present (and had been recorded ovipositing) at Hadleigh Country park in Essex...One was taken by a collector who when challenged claimed it was "for the British Museum" a claim which obviously proved false and was presumably just a trophy specimen for the collector himself...

An easily identified, exceptionally rare vagrant...attempting to breed for the very first time in the UK...and still fair game for Collectors

Beneath contempt IMHO

[monet]

It, and they have no place in society.

Regards Gruditch

I am a collector. Do I not have a place in society ?

[jasonbirder]

I am a collector. Do I not have a place in society ?

How does that square with the sites aims...which is to encourage membership of Butterfly Conservation whose code of conduct states

collecting of Lepidoptera from the wild for recreational purposes, for example to assemble a...personal collection, is strongly discouraged...the need to collect butterflies and many moths is difficult to justify

[Gruditch]

I am a collector. Do I not have a place in society ?

If you are collecting Lepidoptera from the wild for recreational purposes, then the answer to your question, is no.

[JohnR]

I am a collector. Do I not have a place in society ?

Not in our society. I recommend stamp collecting, at least some creature doesn't have to die to provide you with a colourful aberration.