French Skipper
French Skipper
Saw this skipper in late July half an hour north of Nice at an altitude of about 300m. I started with Oberthur's, but the wavy S makes me think it might be Cinquefoil, though the cell spot isn't particularly rectangular. Can anybody help?
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Padfield
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Re: French Skipper
I was waiting for Roger to reply - and am only really replying myself to keep the thread alive. I'd be interested to see what he thinks, having done a special study of Pyrgus and knowing the area. For myself, my intuition is against cirsii - it doesn't look 'blocked' enough and I've never seen that amount of 'paint run' on cirsii. It's quite typical of bellieri, though: see http://www.pyrgus.de/Pyrgus_bellieri_en.html.
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Roger Gibbons
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Re: French Skipper
Good question. I really couldn’t say, mainly because I have so little experience of bellieri (foulquieri), but these are the thoughts wandering aimlessly around in my head.
I would agree that the cirsii cell/discoidal spot is not as wide as you would expect for cirsii, but I have found the odd few cirsii where this is the case. This is one:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... Var_1Sep13_
This was definitely identified as cirsii from the underside.
The upf marks are certainly jagged (paint splashes) which is usually a trademark of bellieri, but I have found cirsii can be a little like this and the splashes are not so exaggerated as to preclude cirsii. Almost, though.
The hindwing discal mark is slightly cleft, whereas in cirsii I have found it always to be solid. The mark seems more indicative of armoricanus (Oberthur’s). Also it is quite white (comparatively), whereas cirsii is often yellowish to a varying degree. The overall look look and feel is one of armoricanus and if it wasn’t for the jagged marks, I’d say it was a strong candidate.
The location and date seem right for both cirsii and bellieri.
I think you would need an underside shot to be definitive, but I’m sure we’d have seen one if one existed. Or a view of the underside of the abdomen (it is a male) but is this only a way of telling bellieri from alveus?
My question is: did it seem large in the field? If it did, then bellieri is much more of a possibility. I had a similar problem specimen earlier this year:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... ar_27May14_
This was very large, much much larger than the armoricanus also flying there. Despite the wear, the jagged marks strongly suggested bellieri and the unh marks all ticked the bellieri boxes. But it was seen in May, way too early for bellieri.
In conclusion, it’s a case (for me) of which species has the least reasons why not. I think I’d say cirsii 50%, bellieri 30% and armoricanus 20%.
I would agree that the cirsii cell/discoidal spot is not as wide as you would expect for cirsii, but I have found the odd few cirsii where this is the case. This is one:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... Var_1Sep13_
This was definitely identified as cirsii from the underside.
The upf marks are certainly jagged (paint splashes) which is usually a trademark of bellieri, but I have found cirsii can be a little like this and the splashes are not so exaggerated as to preclude cirsii. Almost, though.
The hindwing discal mark is slightly cleft, whereas in cirsii I have found it always to be solid. The mark seems more indicative of armoricanus (Oberthur’s). Also it is quite white (comparatively), whereas cirsii is often yellowish to a varying degree. The overall look look and feel is one of armoricanus and if it wasn’t for the jagged marks, I’d say it was a strong candidate.
The location and date seem right for both cirsii and bellieri.
I think you would need an underside shot to be definitive, but I’m sure we’d have seen one if one existed. Or a view of the underside of the abdomen (it is a male) but is this only a way of telling bellieri from alveus?
My question is: did it seem large in the field? If it did, then bellieri is much more of a possibility. I had a similar problem specimen earlier this year:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... ar_27May14_
This was very large, much much larger than the armoricanus also flying there. Despite the wear, the jagged marks strongly suggested bellieri and the unh marks all ticked the bellieri boxes. But it was seen in May, way too early for bellieri.
In conclusion, it’s a case (for me) of which species has the least reasons why not. I think I’d say cirsii 50%, bellieri 30% and armoricanus 20%.
Re: French Skipper
Thank you both for your very detailed responses. Much appreciated, and I will try much harder next time to get underwing shots too.