Map sighting near Swanage

[David M]

I'm really enjoying this thread and I hope it continues.

What's enjoyable is that propensity for us to post before we engage our brains.

I mean, I disagree totally with clandestine releases yet I indulge myself in such places as Wrecclesham/Sand Point (for artificially introduced species) as well as other locations (Marbled Fritillary) where just such liberations have occurred.

I'll be honest, if Maps had suddenly turned up on the south Welsh coast irrespective of their provenance I'd have been there like a shot.

So, in brief, I HATE it but deep down I QUITE LIKE IT (because if I didn't, I'd refuse to go to these places).

[Pete Eeles]

What's enjoyable is that propensity for us to post before we engage our brains.

Possibly the funniest thing I've ever read on UKB!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Gibster]

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of photographing British butterflies, so I would be very pleased if the Map butterfly established itself here and do not really care if they arrived as a immigrant or were introduced by persons unknown.

Yeah, let's all just dump stuff into the wild, so we can photograph it

Gruditch

Good to see that Gorilla Gruditch is still as subtle, helpful and understanding as a half tonne of bricks. On the plus side he does carry a higher dosage of sarcasm. Note, I posted this after engaging brain.

[nomad]

I agree with both Dave and Pete, I have just edited a post I made early this morning, reading it made me giggle. I expect if these Map butterflies were introduced, those that did so might be reading this and having some really good enjoyment. That said, there have been some very interesting and worthwhile points made in this great thread and forum.

Regards to all Peter.

[jasonbirder]

Problem with releases like this...

If these were genuine immigrants...they and the site would warrant protecting and encouraging...a new British breeder and such a charismatic one too would create quite a stir and be a real flagship for Butterfly Conservation...

Unfortunately illegal releases cloud the picture and create a degree of cynicism - so if they ever did genuinely occur it would be difficult the resources they would deserve...

[nomad]

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of photographing British butterflies, so I would be very pleased if the Map butterfly established itself here and do not really care if they arrived as a immigrant or were introduced by persons unknown.

Yeah, let's all just dump stuff into the wild, so we can photograph it

Gruditch

Good to see that Gorilla Gruditch is still as subtle, helpful and understanding as a half tonne of bricks. On the plus side he does carry a higher dosage of sarcasm. Note, I posted this after engaging brain.

I thought sarcasm was known as the lowest form of wit. I am still trying to engage my brain at this early hour to get ready for work. On the plus side, I am off to search for Brown Hairstreak females to photograph tomorrow, so I hope my brain will be fully engaged.
Regards Peter.

[Gruditch]

Good to see that Gorilla Gruditch

Remember Gibster, attack the idea, not the person. No name calling

Regards Gruditch

[The Annoying Czech]

Hehe, I faced a pretty much similar debate with some Slovaks (that really suck in nature conservation/exploration and tend to focus on collectors instead of what really matters, eg. proper site management) also overreacting about the collectors, nets, etc., and rather decided not to comment anything and anoyone to avoid being unpopular for such an useless debate. But, unlike Slovakia, I consider UK and UKB to be an advanced, world-class society with well-explored butterfly (and wildlife overall) situation, not living in the past. So my surprise is even bigger now.

I myself carry net everywhere and everytime, no matter if I'm butterflying in CZE, SK, CRO... And I've never faced attempts to confiscate my net (as it frankly never even came to my mind before I opened this discussion). I might have had some troubles with extremely bad parking or trespassing or dogs but the net or "hurting" the butterflies was never a deal at all. Anyway, how can you do a serious monitoring without the net? How can you distinguish the similarities without?

If anyone tried to taky my beloved net off, I would probably used it for a self-devence instead of surrender Also, there is no law for.

After tonns of research and exploration, after writing buttloads of paper, how on earth is still possible collectors to be such a big theme? As their impact on butterflies at otherwise well-kept sites is apparently so low?

Here in CZE to collectors are mostly connected with extinction of Apollo that's both extremely attractive and extremely slow and stupid species, but even in this case is obvious those people didn't do the major work. One can just compare its (former) sites 100 years back and now and knows all he need.

I do hope you never into the mood of blaming collectors of everything - as it is so obvious the biggest problem is your ancestors remained the UK nature in the sad state where it is now. Where even European's common species, just as Mazarine Blue or Large Copper, wasn't able to thrive and survive. A collectors? Really?

On the contrary, I can imagine how highly suspicious you are when anything new occures on the Isles (although in case of Maps rather hard to imagine for me, as the species is totally common and low-demanding throughout Europe, eg. just like Peacock). If the collectors are so aggressive in your country, you might just consider a certain information embargo for new or critical species. We do it so here too, although we are not happy about and the embargo is not too rigid and rather slows the potential "evil collectors" than entirely stops them.

So, Kudos goes to AndyB, as his post is really fitting

P.S. I've never killed an animal to be pinned yet, just for research purposes. Still, if we all lived 100 years ago, we would probably collect butterflies en masse (not having the cameras, etc.). Did butterflies survived those times? They surely did - and they had a great time. Because people really cared about the landscape to fulfill the basic needs.


Marek

[Gruditch]

As we are not blessed with that many species here in the UK, a net is not usually needed for identification. Some of my local sites do not allow trapping with nets, obviously unless you are leading a walk or something. On the few occasions I have met someone with a net, I have inquired what they were about. On each occasion, they have turned out not to be collectors, but were unaware that they were not allowed to be using a net.

With these Map probably a release, and a collector obviously after pristine specimens. Would it not make sense, rather than risk the wrath of the angry conservationist, just to breed some for himself. Maybe like the rangers protecting the rhino by removing its horn, someone should catch the butterflies (with a net), and take a nip out of their wings.

Regards Gruditch

[The Annoying Czech]

Btw, I just returned home and 3rd brood of Maps clearly seems to be on the wing, and not 2nd brood (that was pretty and solitary mild this year), those are already dead, obviously. Could be those too in UK, but, of course, I know nothing about number of broods in Northern France. (And if the animals really migrated from the continent.)

2nd and 3rd broods can be distinguished according their rear wings here, I'm not sure about any strict signs, but if you compare two photos... 3rd brood individuals tend to look somehow more creamy...

This is from late August, 2011

As we are not blessed with that many species here in the UK, a net is not usually needed for identification.

Yeah, that's mainly because we're not an island, but in fact, we lay in the edge of many aspects, so our butterfly seasons are regularly full of surprises (eg., Melitaea phoebe came back last year) when the net is definitely needed for id. Don't be angry about though, we are also more fragile to be invaded with Russia once again

[nomad]

I agree that collectors have been unfairly blamed for the demise of British Butterflies. They certainly had an impact on local populations such as the Large Blue at Barnwell Wold and perhaps the Large Copper at Holme Fen. However, both these butterflies were doomed in these localities anyway through mans desire to grab any land for profit or by habitat change. By the 1920s Barnwell Wold was not the short grass and anthills of the 1860s. It was, as BB recalls when he visited in the 1920s, all scrub and sedges. The Great Fen, the habitat of the Large Copper which included Whittlesea Mere and Holme Fen were drained by the 1850s, but the latter did not dry out. Holme Fen after it was drained was still too wet for arable and just left. Birch invaded and today it is a woodland NNR. How wonderful it would be if it was just left alone and today the Large Copper thrived there. Imagine being able to visit there and see the best butterfly species we ever had. There are enough British Butterflies in the larger museums to study and these historic specimens are a truly great resource. We have lost so many butterflies in the U.K that conservation of all the species that have survived here today has to be our top priority . I was surprised to learn that U.K photographers breed non-native butterflies, release them in the wild to get images. Does this really happen. Certainly people do breed British Butterflies to photograph them. Do they then take them to a known locality where they occur and release them there or just open the house window or a car window elsewhere.
Kind Regards Peter.

[Jack Harrison]

Gibster wrote: Good to see that Gorilla Gruditch....

with Gruditch replying

Remember Gibster, attack the idea, not the person. No name calling

Are you going to change your avatar now Gary?

Jack

[Gruditch]

Stop it Jack

Regards Gruditch

[Pete Eeles]

Since the news has seeped out onto the Internet, I thought I'd share it here.

This thread has seen many opinions expressed regarding the origins of the Map butterflies seen near Swanage and the "jury has been out" on whether these were a release or the offspring of a genuine migrant. Those that have been quick to dismiss the sightings as a release should remember that this species can be pretty mobile (and its range has expanded in Europe quite dramatically over the last decade) and one or more individuals may have come over with the Long-tailed Blue and continental Swallowtail last year and bred on from there. The plausibility of this theory (which I didn't come up with, but I won't name names without permission!) was reinforced with both BC taking an interest and known collectors turning up on site (presumably wanting to either take adults or immature stages of British Map to rear on and add to their collections, or earn some cash, or both). All in all, things were getting very exciting indeed!

Two days ago, an anonymous (to Joe Public) individual contacted BC to own up to an "accidental release". Unfortunately, the facts provided to BC don't stack up based on the observations made. So it could be a genuine release, or a miffed entomologist trying to muddy the waters because he or she didn't get to see the Map. So - not much of a conclusion really and, at this point in time, all we can say is that these Map are of "unknown origin" and, in all likelihood, a release (but it's a shame that the person releasing them didn't tell a convincing story - possibly because deliberately releasing them is breaking the law and they want to be given the benefit of the doubt).

At least some of us got to see the adults (and study their behaviour) and ova that were laid - and it will still be interesting to see if these make it through to adulthood - with some excellent pictures shared on these forums.

Cheers,

- Pete

[False Apollo]

I was lucky enough to visit the Map site early on and have kept quiet as requested by the finders. I have been following the thread with interest. It was great to see them actively flying, nectaring and egg laying. There were several Maps of varying condition seen on the day I went which was hot and sunny. The thing that surprised me most was how they disappeared after nectaring, they literally vanished and observers had to wait for another to be re-found. I saw fresh looking males and females and one tatty individual which could still hit a good speed in flight. There must be a good chance of dispersal from the site to surrounding areas. It will be a pity if indeed it is a release (which does now seem likely after Pete's comments) but a small colony would be nice to have on British soil. What's done is done, so I'm all for protecting them now they are here. The finders had the best interests of the butterflies in mind at the time and were under pressure to be careful how to release the news, which would inevitably leak out at some time. They were some sight to see though!

Regards
Mike

[nomad]

Hi all. The Swanage Map butterfly saga is certainly a intriguing one. I thought that the locality was supposed to be kept a secret. It does seem that all that really want to see the Map butterflies have managed to find out or have been given their location and have been visiting them. Perhaps that's why I was on my own at Shipton Bellinger ' Brown Hairstreak ' hunting last Saturday, all the butterfly enthusiasts had all rushed off to the very beautiful Swanage area to do some ' twitching ' . Even collectors it seems have turned up, so the men with nets must believe that these butterflies have made their own way across the channel, otherwise they certainly would not be interested in such a common species that can be bought very cheaply. Now we have had a lepidopterist?? come forward and owned up to the release. Perhaps he did release them, but did not want to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth because his actions as Pete has said were illegal. It could also be that this is a person that likes to add fuel to the fire for a bit of fun. We need Sherlock Holmes or we may never know the true origin of those Maps .

Regards Peter

[jasonbirder]

I wanted to see it...and never found out where...I had my suspicions...but Nottingham to Swanage is a long way to travel on a hunch...

Mildly irritating in that if it was to be well and truly suppressed on protection grounds...fair enough...but it was well and truly passed around the locals...as the number of different photo's goes to show!

Hey ho!

[David M]

It's important to draw a distinction between the Map sightings (very probably artificially liberated) and Yellow-Legged Tortoiseshell/Long Tailed Blue sightings (100% genuinely natural).

The degree of excitement is obviously far, far greater when the presence of the butterfly is as a result of natural phenomena.

I absolutely agree with the poster who commented that had these scruple-devoid collectors known about the true provenance of the Map butterflies, then they'd have been far more reluctant to visit the area in order to take these specimens.

That's why it's important that people 'come clean' regarding such releases. Sadly, human psyche being what it is, these illegal releases will continue to happen anonymously as a) those responsible don't wish to risk prosecution and b) as Gruditch said earlier in this thread, there is an egotistic element to indulging in such activity then sitting back and watching connoisseurs like us work ourselves into a frenzy about something we sincerely hope has happened naturally.

Have certain folk nothing better to do with their lives? Their levels of inadequacy and insecurity must be off the Richter Scale.

[langtonbirder]

Hi guys,

Just published my thoughts on the latest news that somebody has come forward admitting to an accidental release of Maps along with how I'm struggling with the word accidental.

Also the photos have identified a total of 17 individuals up to the end of the 9th.

http://birdingpooleharbourandbeyond.blo ... ction.html

There are also responses to some of the comments on this & other social media threads about these Maps

Steve S

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Steve - looking forward to a good read! I think the correct link is:

http://birdingpooleharbourandbeyond.blo ... ge_21.html

Cheers,

- Pete