Map sighting near Swanage

[David M]

Oh dear. the divide between entomologists who are into butterflies and birdwatchers who are into butterflies rears it's head again.

Not sure what you're getting at.

Sometimes it even requires killing the insect, even in some cases lepidoptera.

If it's a scientific study into, for instance, Real's/Cryptic Wood White then I don't object. I'm struggling to comprehend how any other activity requiring the killing of butterflies in the UK could be justifiable.

Butterfly collecting is actually not illegal in this country - although it is illegal to collect certain species without a licence, and illegal to collect any species at certain locations without a licence. But at the the moment, as the law stands, it would be perfectly legal for me to lean over your hedge and catch a Peacock off the buddliea in your garden (as long as I didn't damage the buddleia), and kill it and pin it, and even then sell it on ebay, and you would have no recourse legally except to take out an injunction to stop me doing it again. We might wish the law was different, but that's the law as it stands.

Well, I personally wish the law were different.

"Confiscating" a net would be a criminal act of theft leading anyone who did it to certainly face charges, irrespective of whether the net belonged to someone who was illegally collecting. The police would certainly see the loss of property as more significant than an offence against the wildlife and countryside act.

I'm quite happy to take that risk. On the 'Richter Scale' of crimes this one resonates at at the lowest level. I'm quite happy to be fined for damaging a net if need be in order to safeguard butterfly welfare.

This paranoia about insect nets is near universal - which makes it amusing when I lead walks for the local branch of Butterfly Conservation, net in hand

There's no paranoia. Just genuine concern.

If individuals were carrying nets on PBF/SPBF or Essex/Small Skipper sites then I'd be perfectly relaxed. However, if net wielding individuals suddenly appear at a site that has just seen an influx of rare migrants such as Long Tailed Blues (as happened last year), then in the absence of proper legislation to dissuade people from capturing these butterflies I exercise the right to invoke protective measures of my own if need be.

[jasonbirder]

From a UK perspective there is simply no reason to collect any Butterflies for ID purposes...particularly with the ease and cost of digital photography...

I do a reasonable amount of Moth Trapping...and whilst there is a considerably greater number of species and ID problems...from a macro perspective apart from one or two species pairs that have to be submitted as "aggregates" the same applies, likewise our Odonata...(Even Southern Migrant Hawker!!!)

We're not talking about challenging folk who are collecting Flies and Hoverflies as part of a scientific study...

But challenging the kind of idiots who would collect and pin a Long-tailed Blue or Southern Migrant Hawker...

I'm not sure I understand the patronising

divide between entomologists who are into butterflies and birdwatchers who are into butterflies rears it's head again

comment...

I think most people here are proud to be amateur enthusiasts...and whilst there may be a cold logic in saying that collecting individuals for whatever purpose doesn't massively effect overall populations...its neither true in the case of individual sites...and is insensitive in the extreme to the wishes of nature-lovers on whom all conservation efforts rely...

[jasonbirder]

LOL! Simultaneous posting there David M I agree wholeheartedly!

[essexbuzzard]

Truth be told,i'm not entirely comfortable with it,either. But i feel a hypocrite because,while i can identify all the British species,in parts of Europe this is not the case,so a net there can be helpful,in my opinion.

I agree about the Long-tailed Blues. In fact,i doubt if these Maps have any legal protectin! So you can understand why the site is being keps under wraps.

There are two sides to this coin. On the one hand,few of us will mind being kept in the dark,if it led to a colony of Maps being established. On the other hand,if this colony dies out,we have all been denied the chance to go and see it.

[brian laney]

Truth be told,i'm not entirely comfortable with it,either. But i feel a hypocrite because,while i can identify all the British species,in parts of Europe this is not the case,so a net there can be helpful,in my opinion.

I agree about the Long-tailed Blues. In fact,i doubt if these Maps have any legal protectin! So you can understand why the site is being keps under wraps.

There are two sides to this coin. On the one hand,few of us will mind being kept in the dark,if it led to a colony of Maps being established. On the other hand,if this colony dies out,we have all been denied the chance to go and see it.

This is the same situation regarding the Ghost orchid in the UK. If I refound it in the Chilterns do I keep quiet or do I let the UK know?
Agree there are two sides to the coin.

[Susie]

All that being said if anyone wants to pm me on where to find these map if they're still about I'd be very grateful!

I promise no nets

[dave brown]

Whatever your views on nets and collecting, the mere threat of collecting is preventing those of us who just wish to see, and photograph, the current Map butterflies at Swanage from seeing them. Having spoken to someone who has been fortunate enough to see them there is real serious local concern that if the location details are released the butterflies will be collected. I feel sorry for the finders because by not releasing details some accuse them of suppression and preventing the majority from not seeing them. On the other hand, if a collector were to be active it would almost certainly be in the early days when the butterflies are fresh, so we would miss them anyway. The locals have a real dilemma for which there is no easy solution. Hence the secrecy.

Before anyone asks I do not know the location. I appreciate the situation the locals find themselves in so have not even asked for details, despite temptation.

[Jack Harrison]

Any reliable estimates how many butterfly collectors there are in UK? Are we over-worried about a trivial threat? I suspect there are very few real collectors these days but I just don't know. Maybe there should be a data base of active collectors - with photos

Don't count youngsters who use a net just for fun. One of my boys caught a Meadow Brown at age four but then let it go. The fun for him was catching a common butterfly and he hadn't then (and still doesn't have) any inclination to collect.

Jack

[Liz Goodyear]

http://www.wwb.co.uk/map-butterfly-levana-pupae

Sorry but I can't the hang of this butterfly twitching lark?

Liz

[Jack Harrison]

Liz Goodyear:

Sorry but I can't [get] the hang of this butterfly twitching lark?

followed by a link to suppliers of livestock, Worldwide Butterflies.

Not quite sure what you mean here. Twitching in the birding sense implies long-distance travel to see a single rare bird. By implication, butterfly twitching means travel especially to see eg a Queen of Spain or a Long-tailed Blue - as of course many pole on ukb have done in the past few years.

So where does Worldwide Butterflies come into this? Unless of course it is assumed that the Map butterflies seen near Swanage are from WW Butterflies' stock.
That is indeed possible, but I had thought that the jury was still out.

Jack

[badgerbob]

It is worrying that any Tom, Dick or Harry can send off for these pupa, put them in the shed and then next Spring they just get released into the British Countryside. It would be wonderful if these butterflies found their own way here but, with firms like this about there will probably always be a question mark about their origin.

[nomad]

Let us all hope that these Map butterflies are genuine immigrants, but call me a doubting Thomas because I am not convinced yet that they arrived under their own steam. It would be great to have this lovely and interesting butterfly. Many Entomologists who study the lesser known insect orders carry nets, remember, not everybody is just interested in lepidoptera. It must be remembered that the great decrease in British Butterflies was caused by a total disregard and a mismanagement of their habitat. Perhaps the biggest cause of the decline in British butterflies was clear felling of many grand old woods by the Forestry Commission and replanting them with cash crops of conifers and beech plantations and a cession of coppicing when they bought them.
Regards Peter.

[Mark Tutton]

I fear this is not a subject that will disappear in the near future - unfortunately.
Over the past three or four years I have encountered six or seven butterfly collectors - most on sites frequently visited by members of this forum, including Fermyn Woods. Two were overt with long handled nets and made no secret that they were collecting 'female purple emperors to refresh their breeding stocks'. This was on Hampshire Forestry Commission land.
I also surprised two people in one of the more remote rides in Fermyn with nets, they had laid bait at intervals along the ride and I chanced upon them on my bike as they hurriedly discharged their nets into the undergrowth - disguising their real intent by gazing up into the trees with binoculars!
I have also come across net bearing individuals on two Hampshire Duke of Burgundy sites - one of whom routinely has a stall at the AES exhibition. Both of these sites are small with perhaps 20/30 individuals so the potential for harm is obvious.
It is also very disappointing to hear that such people may have been at Daneway Banks after the huge amount of work that has gone into the reintroduction of the Large Blue.
Bearing in mind most of these sites have an 'owner' the removal of anything is technically theft if they do not have permission - however this is almost impossible to enforce.
In every case I have enquired as to these people motives and expressed my disapproval, but in most instances they have operated in twos, one normally acting as a 'lookout' and not really a situation where confrontation would be wise.

Unfortunately, with the Map Butterfly given their rarity, I feel examples would be collected no matter what their condition, so I would, sadly, support the secrecy surrounding their location.
Kind Regards
Mark

[David M]

Truth be told,i'm not entirely comfortable with it,either. But i feel a hypocrite because,while i can identify all the British species,in parts of Europe this is not the case,so a net there can be helpful,in my opinion.

Absolutely, EB. There were times I wish I'd had a net whilst in France last month, particularly for one or two unusual erebia that were passing by. I still think I'd feel a little guilty though, as any resultant conclusive identification would really be solely for my own satisfaction, which doesn't really justify netting specimens in my opinion, although there's always the chance that you might find a species not previously recorded in that region, meaning that if you submitted your finding then there would be a scientific element to it.

It's not the net per se that's the issue; it's the intent of the individual wielding it. If it's merely to capture and kill rare immigrants to keep as 'trophies' then I absolutely condemn it.

[Jack Harrison]

I don't think may of us could really object to WWB selling exotics such as Tiger Swallowtail that could never be mistaken for wild butterflies but I am amazed at some of the species listed in the catalogue, eg

Duke of Burgundy
Yellow-legged Tortoiseshell
Continental Swallowtail
and there are many many more

Maybe a strong letter from Butterfly Conservation to Worldwide Butterflies that it is considered UNACCEPTABLE to sell livestock of rare British species or of those that might conceivable arrive here under their own steam. WWB are no doubt perfectly entitled to argue that the sale of such species is within the law but a warning might make them realise that BC could take stronger action (eg lobby for a change in the law). Someone will no doubt cry "blackmail" but laws ARE changed when their is sufficient demand.

Jack

[Pete Eeles]

Not sure about that (BC may have an opinion, but it's only an opinion and they are likely to be ignored as a result) - I think that the real point is that nobody is notified of releases of potential migrants and that sightings such as Map can cause confusion for those studying migration, the effects of climate change etc. The same goes for releases of rare species into new sites, potentially misinforming and disrupting conservation efforts. "Irresponsible releasing" would therefore be my concern.

And I'm sure the owner of WWB is more than aware of this potential for his customers to cause confusion, especially since he's one of the founders of BC! But he can't be blamed for the behaviour of his customers!

http://www.dorsetbutterflies.com/about/ ... story.html

Cheers,

- Pete

[Susie]

In reality mass footfall is probably more of a hazard to the area than collectors and a better reason to keep the site quiet.

[kevling]

Whilst the catching of Butterflies for collection purposes is not acceptable, please take a gentle approach to anyone you see with a net. It doesn't mean they are up to no good. I have a net, which I have used this summer to help teach my young daughter about the differences between Essex & Small skippers and male from female Large Skippers. Perfectly acceptable in my opinion, so don't forget it may be innocent people like me that you are harshly challenging.

Regards Kev

[Padfield]

In reality mass footfall is probably more of a hazard to the area than collectors and a better reason to keep the site quiet.

That is why I wouldn't even consider publishing a site - for me there's no dilemma at all. The information might or might not endanger the particular species in question but it condemns anything else innocently getting on with its life there. Show the site to selected, trusted friends, send the location details to the appropriate recorder and share pictures on the internet. That's my policy, anyway (as anyone who has ever e-mailed me for site information will know!! ).

Guy

[Matsukaze]

In reality mass footfall is probably more of a hazard to the area than collectors and a better reason to keep the site quiet.

I agree with this - many butterfly species are highly sensitive as to their habitat requirements, and trampling of the foodplant by over-enthusiastic visitors might well lead to the failure of this species to establish itself as a resident here.