Skippers again

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:01 pm

x2 uppersides from Bergerac again in Aug 2005. I finally decided they were Oberthur's but I hope someone will have a look & tell me what they think...

Post by **Padfield** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:40 pm

My first thought was that your second picture looked jolly like the onopordi I found this summer. I looked in Tolman and he didn't have onopordi from Bergerac, but then I looked in Kudrna (more recent) and he does... So that can't be ruled out. However, I agree armoricanus is a possibility.

Here are two different individuals of onopordi for comparison:

I'm certain you don't have underside pictures, or you would have posted them... I netted one of the above onopordi and took this photo of the underside, which was even more conclusive in real life:

I certainly wouldn't like to call your insects without seeing the undersides!

Guy

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:44 pm

Hi Guy, and thanks again.. I did find one uns. but it is an awful snap!... again I'm not sure it is actually one of the above specimens, but?????

Post by **Padfield** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:57 am

Well!! That underside is certainly not onopordi, at least. It looks most like malvae to me! The only thing is, you would expect to see some white outside the postdiscal mark on the upperside forewing in malvae. Here's one from this year (in my garden). Looks similar, doesn't it!

It doesn't look like armoricanus, though my own experience of this species is limited. Neither of your uppersides really looks like malvae to me.

Must go to work.

Guy[/img]

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:56 pm

Are the markings at the uns. anal angle relevant? Could they be more representative of armoricanus than malvae?? Otherwise I concede they do match well! I am only able to look at Tolman/ Lafranchis, and I have no idea - am quite happy to settle for malvae

Post by **Padfield** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:29 pm

I met a very good butterfly-watcher in Spain, who gave me good local info, but he just refused to do Pyrgus. I've come to feel over time that in the flesh I can do more and more Pyrgus accurately and I feel confident with a lot of my local species. BUT I still find individuals every year I simply have no idea about.

I think your first two pictures show armoricanus and the last quite possibly malvae. It doesn't really seem to have the armoricanus arches (in the anal angle), or indeed, enough markings at all. I just wish I could see the ups properly. That exclamation mark, too, which is always talked up for andromedae, is also found in cacaliae (which this is definitely not) and to a lesser extent in malvae.

This year, for the first time ever, I've been using a net - almost exclusively for Pyrgus and Erebia. One day, maybe, I'll know what I'm talking about!!

Guy

Post by **Padfield** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Tim Cowles states with confidence that all your pictures are malvoides, Paul. I have to say, I'd never really registered this subspecies as looking different from malvae but from the pictures on Tim's site it seems it really does. Here in the Alps our grizzlies are very black and white, with prominent spots on the hindwing and white spots around the edges of the forewing - quite different from yours.

Tim sees a lot of malvoides, so I guess he's right!!

Guy

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:33 pm

Fantastic.. many many thanks for the input, malvoides they must be!