Fracking – Barton Moss Greater Manchester

[Gibster]

Have done, Susie. Thank you

[MikeOxon]

the only sensible option given the population level is to go 100% nuclear.

Unfortunately. no. Nuclear is great for providing the so-called 'base load' but suffers from the fact that it can't be turned 'off' and 'on' again at will (for complex technical reasons)

So, we need alternatives to cope with the peaks of demand, which most renewables cannot do reliably because the peaks in demand do not necessary coincide with wind, sun,tides, etc. Hydro and geothermal are excellent, if you have it (e.g. Iceland) but most of us have to look to fossil fuels to fill the gaps.

We can dream about all sorts of future technologies - of which fusion is an example - but we have a problem 'here and now', which wishful thinking cannot solve. If we want to maintain the infrastructure of a complex modern society - and this is not just "keeping the lights on" but maintaining the industries that provide jobs, the transport system that underpins most aspects of our lives, the medical facilities that alleviate much suffering - then we have to make decisions now.

These decisions won't suit everyone but they do have to be made! By all means object, if that is how you feel after having considered the options carefully, but please accept that we need workable solutions and don't assume that "something will turn up" or that weird conspiracies are suppressing realistic solutions.

Mike

[Jack Harrison]

Some normally-active members of ukb haven’t yet showed their hands.

Of those who have, I don’t think there have been any surprises: you could almost have written the script.

This shows just how good ukb forums are. We get to know (even though not necessarily in person) other members. Thank you Pete for allowing people to have their say, unlike some heavily moderated groups that want to surpass everything that is not in accord with the moderators’ views.

Jack

[sami]

Off to the Moss for the third time. It's not a short journey for me but every second I'm there is worth it. Some updates for those who are interested.

The man 'threatening to kill' a security guard is my friend Peaceful Dan, an intelligent well informed man who has the 'misfortune' of being one of the camp's legal observers, as Seth mentioned. The security guard he supposedly threatened doesn't seem to want to follow up his (false) claim and Dan remains on bail for something he didn't do. The clue's in the name.

Whilst we're on the subject of legal observers... I was sat around the campfire with some of the camp residents on Sunday chatting with a well spoken legal observer called Kris. We were having a laugh kidding about the fact that the police had put a 24 hour guard on the new 'poo pit' being dug, they thought it was a tunnel. (The police filled it in with cement the next day and then cut most of the trees down on the lane, worried about tree-based direct action...!)
The next day Kris was doing his duty and filming the protest. He pointed out to one of the officers that one of the trucks didn't have a license plate. They ignored him and he kept walking. Suddenly he was jumped on by several officers who proceeded to beat him until he had a black eye, broken eye socket and suspected broken ribs.

Why would anyone go back knowing that this is a possibility? Because we truly believe that fracking will seriously harm our environment. I was having an interesting chat with some 'birders against fracking' who were there, listing all the special species you can find on the moss. Curlew, green shank, yellowhammer, owls, water voles. The fracking company have put a woefully inadequate concrete 'buffer zone' around the rig to protect the voles but that will mean nothing if the water gets contaminated below ground - a very strong possibility.

Dunno what else to say really, this has quite taken over my life at the moment - as Gibster will attest to! Watching video of the people I've made friends with cry on the silent march of the trucks the day after Kris' beating has wound me up to the point that if people want to ask me questions then I'm happy to help, but I'll be backing out of this debate now until that happens as it's frustrating seeing naturalists push a dangerous and destructive technology, and insult my 'jobless, criminal' friends.

Thanks to all who have supported, you know who you are!

Sami

[sami]

Ps, we are not a minority. In a recent poll in the Manchester Evening News, 96% were against fracking. Nuff said.

[Jack Harrison]

In a recent poll in the Manchester Evening News, 96% were against fracking. Nuff said.

Did that poll ask them what they wanted instead to keep their lights on and cars running?

But I can guess what the answer would have been. Any source of energy production/generation provided it's not on their particular doorsteps.

Jack

[Jack Harrison]

I have tried - with limited success - to find out more about Peaceful Dan. I did come across a video of him protesting outside the council offices in Chichester. Dan looks a little young to be retired so I have to wonder how he has so much spare time on his hands. He must have a very tolerant boss to allow him so much time off.

Presumably as he feels entitled to speak on behalf of the residents of West Sussex AND the residents of Great Manchester he has homes in both places?

Jack

[sami]

I'm sitting here right now with Dan. Please stop being so offensive about my friends Jack.

Ps, Manchester isn't exactly on my doorstop...

[Gruditch]

Jack

I remember the professional protesters at the gate, when I was doing some work at Greenham Common, for some reason they were never there on a Thursday.


Regards Gary

[David M]

With newspaper polls, one inevitably sees a landslide victory on issues where there really is only one side which will feel strongly enough to make the effort to place their vote.

I doubt whether there are more than a handful of people as vehemently for fracking as there are vehemently against it, so the result isn't surprising. However, that doesn't naturally mean that this vote is broadly representative.

When I used to buy the Manchester Evening News I recall there being a poll asking whether capital punishment should be brought back. This was in the aftermath of a particularly gruesome murder somewhere in Wythenshawe.

Of those sufficiently motivated to vote, 95% voted in favour, yet no-one genuinely believes that reflects the views of the entire electorate.

[essexbuzzard]

Can anyone tell me why every single new home built doesn't come with fully operational solar panels? This is not the answer to all our energy needs,of course. With all the new houses going up everywhere, Britains energy needs will increase in future, in line with population increase.

[Jack Harrison]

As you realise Sami, I am far from convinced that you are doing the right thing with your objection to fracking. It is a bit like King Canute trying to stop the inevitable tide (in this case, the tide of energy requirements).

I am sure you would get far more support if you concentrated on how best to mitigate the environmental disruption associated with fracking. Rather than a blanket objection, make the developers understand that they cannot simply destroy the countryside in their own selfish interests. The environment must be respected and damage to irreplaceable habitats is not acceptable.

Approaching the fracking issue along these lines would get my support and that of many others: accept that it IS going to happen but use your group influence to ensure that it is done in the best possible way.

Jack

[MikeOxon]

Can anyone tell me why every single new home built doesn't come with fully operational solar panels? This is not the answer to all our energy needs,of course. With all the new houses going up everywhere, Britains energy needs will increase in future, in line with population increase.

Could anyone with these panels tell me how much benefit they actually see from them. Also, what would it be if not heavily subsidised by the rest of us? My impression is that full sun is not that common in this country (especially not at night, which is a lot of the time in Winter, when heat and light are most needed in our homes!) and that the sun is always rather low in the sky.

Sorry, a bit off the topic of this thread but I'm genuinely interested.

Mike

[Jack Harrison]

There is a huge solar farm on the Isle of Muck. You could hardly imagine a less sunny place.

I am considering installing a turbine in one of the drain pipes from the roof of my house. The amount of rain here on Mull should ensure that I can keep all my lights on 24/7 AND heat the house from just that one turbine

(I have recorded 280 millimetres rain so far this January. December was a dry month with a mere 250 mms)

Jack

[MikeOxon]

There is a huge solar farm on the Isle of Muck. You could hardly imagine a less sunny place.

So, does it generate any electricity or was it built simply to take advantage of the Government (i.e. our) subsidy?

I'm sure it would be good if we could convert some of the World's deserts into solar farms - but Muck?

An additional point about nuclear power, where I earlier commented that 100% utilisation may not be feasible - there is the possibility of using the surplus electricity, at times of low demand, for electrolysis, to convert water into hydrogen fuel.

Mike

[Jack Harrison]

So, does it [Muck solar farm] generate any electricity or was it built simply to take advantage of the Government (i.e. our) subsidy?

Don't know the answer to that but if Scotland gets Independence, then the UK Government will no longer be subsidising Scotland [under the Barnett Formula]

The Barnett formula is a mechanism used by The Treasury in the United Kingdom to adjust the amounts of public expenditure allocated to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Jack

[MikeOxon]

I read up on the Isle of Muck scheme at http://www.windandsun.co.uk/case-studie ... -muck.aspx

The key point is that the local population is only 38 people and the scheme combines wind and solar, together with a diesel generator, to keep large (53kWh) 48v rechargeable batteries topped up.

In such a small community, it is feasible to run off batteries in this way and, apparently, the diesel generator has only been used once, since the scheme started. I suspect the wind turbines do most of the topping up in that location.

Mike

[David M]

I'm sure it would be good if we could convert some of the World's deserts into solar farms

I've often wondered that too. I mean, what is that land actually doing? Nothing.

I suppose there must be a reason why this is not practical.

[Jack Harrison]

Mike

I'm sure it would be good if we could convert some of the World's deserts into solar farms

Or the Moon.

Ignorant question. Can electricity be transmitted by methods other than cables? For example, by microwave [from the Moon]?

When I see the Moon "lifting" billions of tonnes of water daily (tides), why isn't tidal power used more extensively?

Jack

[maverick]

Can anyone tell me why every single new home built doesn't come with fully operational solar panels? This is not the answer to all our energy needs,of course. With all the new houses going up everywhere, Britains energy needs will increase in future, in line with population increase.

The council in my area has had all council houses fitted with solar panels, and I for one think that they look ugly and don't do much for the area,as for the benefits the house holders get a 10% reduction in there bill over the year and the rest of the money goes back to the council. To me it all doesn't add up