Fracking – Barton Moss Greater Manchester

[Jack Harrison]

It is impossible to get any balanced views. Is there any special wildlife on Barton (and adjacent Mosses)? I presume Large Heath butterfly disappeared many years ago.

So for a moment, let's forget the pros and cons of fracking.

My query is: what might be the impact on wildlife of exploration and possibly later exploitation of shale gas at Barton Moss (and indeed, other places).

Jack

[P.J.Underwood]

Jack,
Such a place down here is Fernhurst.It is raising peoples temperatures somewhat and causing a lot of hot air.If it is anything like the oil extraction that has been going on for years at Brownsea,I would expect its effect to be minimal.I rather like the bribes being handed out to local Councils.Take money from them with one hand and give it back with the other if they obey!
P.J.U.

[David M]

This is not far from where I used to live. As a pragmatist, I'm torn between the joy of having a reliable source of cheaper energy and the sadness at any environmental damage that might be caused.

My initial reaction is based on an instinctive antipathy towards kneejerk reactions by the likes of the Green Party, because if we listened to them, we'd all be living in the Dark Ages. However, I'd hate to see prime landscape ruined due to copious and long term engineering work.

I'm sure when electricity pylons were first proposed there were groups equally intent on sabotaging this mode of progress (without which, these days, life would be unthinkable).

As an aside, I do wonder how some people have the time to camp out for weeks on end in order to protest at such developments. Are they all like Swampy with no job and no home because if they are then thank God not everybody decides to pursue such a lifestyle otherwise we'd all be stuffed.

[maverick]

From what I have heard the actual fracking sites are relatively small ,so with all the negative press that's been bantered about in the press, the sites would likely have a large area cordoned off around the the actual site
Ideal for wild life !

[millerd]

I always enjoy the glorious vista north from the viewpoint on the road between Corfe Castle and Studland in Dorset. My children also find it stunning, especially when I mention the oilwells: the ones you cannot see for the life of you! I believe this is actually quite a productive oilfield and just proves that some of the industrial essentials of modern living can be quite neatly hidden.

Refineries are a bit different, however.

Dave

[Gibster]

I believe my wife, Sami would have a thing or two to say about all of this. She got back from Barton Moss just 90mins ago after camping up there.

I also believe you are being very heavily misguided by the skewed "facts" surrounding the non-dangers of fracking as portrayed by the popular media. I'm not prone to bouts of hysteria, I'm not a slave to the tabloids, I am capable of rational thought. Worrying about the effect a fracking site may have on the surrounding wildlife is not the issue. Look to the bigger picture, please!

Cheers,

Gibster.

[Gibster]

OK, so a very quick update. I just showed this short thread to Sami. After some surprisingly...erm "robust"...language she is saddened to learn that the views above belong to lovers of nature.

Cheers again,

Gibster.

[Jack Harrison]

Worrying about the effect a fracking site may have on the surrounding wildlife is not the issue. Look to the bigger picture, please!

I had clearly said in my original post that started this thread:

So for a moment, let's forget the pros and cons of fracking.
My query is: what might be the impact on wildlife

I knew it wouldn't take long for the thread to move towards the pros of cons of fracking rather than the specific point I raised.

Jack

[Jack Harrison]

May I give a cautionary tale about making a big fuss about some development-or-other in “one’s back yard”? (Sorry, I have fallen in to the trap of digressing from the original question).

Near the village I lived in Cambridgeshire, there was a proposal for a windfarm. “Stop the Windfarm” signs were outside almost every property (not mine I would add). The campaign website said that : ”While we agree with renewable energy, this is not the right location” – pure NIMBYism if ever there was. And the bit I really loved: "Windfarms should be sighted (sic) offshore".

As part of my divorce settlement a couple of years ago, the jointly-owned house was valued. I cannot be certain of the precise details, but it seems likely that it was valued at some 10% lower than it otherwise would have been, not because there was a already a windfarm but that potential buyers would be put off and believe that something dreadful was going to happen. The NIMBY campaign cost me about £30 grand.

Jack

[P.J.Underwood]

Jack,
It is also being stated that in the future if your house cannot receive ultra fast broadband it will be devalued somewhat.So I'm afraid we have to keep up with technology.
P.J.U.

[Jack Harrison]

....if your house cannot receive ultra fast broadband it will be devalued somewhat....

On that basis, my house here on Mull is already devalued as a result of a local building suppliers inability to get hold of a 2.5 litre tin of paint (to finish bathroom redecoration) that was ordered four weeks ago. The wrong quantity had been delivered in the first instance and since then excuses, excuses, excuses.....

So I am making a special journey tomorrow to Oban on the mainland just to buy a tin of paint. What a farce!

Jack

[sami]

Ok. I'm a little nervous about getting involved in this as I am so passionate about it and have a personal connection to it now having seen the incredible work the protesters are doing with my own eyes, the fracking rig itself and having spent a night and two days camping out in the freezing cold with well-informed and frankly inspirational people.

I really resent the implication that it is only jobless 'swampies' up there. I work full time and plan to spend as many of my days off as possible. One of the campers when I was there was an active MP. There is a huge cross section of society there.

Specific threats to wildlife then. In the Barton Moss area, the birds have fallen silent. The rig is active 24/7 with powerful spotlights and a noisy drill. I don't need to explain how this will affect birds, bats, moths etc.

This is an exploratory drill. That means that if shale gas is found in good quantity, many more wells will be drilled around it. All habitat is good habitat and it will be destroyed.

The head of Cuadrilla himself (of the Balcombe debacle) was recorded saying that this technology will not noticeably lower gas prices. This is pure rhetoric.

On a larger scale, we do not need to be looking to fossil fuels for our energy needs. Climate change is affecting our butterflies and other wildlife NOW and this will contribute to that.

Hydraulic fracturing involves pumping water mixed with a cocktail of dangerous chemicals into the ground, not all of which is recoverable and a percentage stays in the ground. This has the possibility to seep into the aquifer and poison water supply. This is dangerous for the local wildlife AND people. This is not supposition, it has already happened in America.

The company that announced a huge investment in UK shale gas yesterday is French. France has already banned fracking there due to the risks, so they're coming here to take our resources instead. Does this not ring alarm bells?

You may have seen me on BBC, ITV, ITN and Sky news last night, standing with the brave, dedicated people protecting the future of our countryside. Over half of Britain is being earmarked for fracking wells. It may be ignorable in Manchester for many but it won't be when we see ugly, noisy, dangerous wells all over our precious landscape.

[Jack Harrison]

Good essay Sami. But how did you travel to and from Barton Moss? I would be surprised if your mode of transport didn't involve use of fossil fuels.

"Cake and eat it" springs to mind.

Jack

[Gruditch]

Regards Gruditch

[Padfield]

Good essay Sami. But how did you travel to and from Barton Moss? I would be surprised if your mode of transport didn't involve use of fossil fuels.

"Cake and eat it" springs to mind.

Jack

I've no idea if Sami travelled by horse and cart or private jet, but given that she walked the length of Britain not so long ago, to show solidarity with the butterflies we all love, I think she's owed a little cake!

Guy

PS - I forgot to say, thank you Sami, for setting out the issues as you see them. It's especially useful for people like me, who are at a great distance from it all.

[David M]

She certainly IS entitled to a little 'cake', and it's unfortunate that my throwaway, flippant line seems to be the cause of much of the angst.

We ALL have a huge carbon footprint compared to other animals on this planet, and nobody can claim immunity from the kind of assertion that Jack cast out a couple of posts previously.

Like I said, I'm a pragmatist and at the end of the day, I acknowledge that we live in a democracy and everybody's views must be listened to. However, if a minority has particularly vehement and trenchant views, they are still a minority, and as such the majority (who may well be extremely quiet by comparison) have to be considered too.

If something is likely to cause minimal damage to the environment with minimal benefits, then it's likely I'll be against.

Similarly, if something is likely to cause enormous damage to the environment for enormous benefits, then I'll probably be against too.

If, however, the benefits far outweigh the damage then I'll probably be for.

I accept I'm not an expert on fracking, but I subscribe to National Geographic magazine (a publication very much erring on the side of environmental and ethical issues) and a couple of editions ago, there was a comprehensive report into fracking in the USA. Whilst problems were highlighted, the overall commentary was largely positive, which rather assuaged many of the negative feelings I had prior to reading the article.

I believe we should at least pilot this groundbreaking (pardon the pun) technology and subject it to proper scientific review. I'm actually more amenable to this than I am to inland wind farms.

[maverick]

I too think coastal wind farm are horrendous
I used to live in Abergele on the North Wales coast, yes when I was a lad there they had a problem with an oil spill that polluted the coast for several years, but if you go there now the so called renewable energy WIND TURBINES are a dredfull sight and there's more every time I go there. So I would be against any more,but as too the original question they probly don't effect wild life too much.
As for fracking if it was as bad as some people make out surely it would have been outlawed years ago. If there are serious problems with it the power's too be should get them sorted out before we start drilling for the gas
So as for their original question I think the damage to wild life Would in my opinion would be minimal .
So Im a yes just get some British firms involved

[Gibster]

I acknowledge that we live in a democracy and everybody's views must be listened to. However, if a minority has particularly vehement and trenchant views, they are still a minority, and as such the majority (who may well be extremely quiet by comparison) have to be considered too.

So that'll be the government you're on about...?

Jack, I know you started this thread but could you please show a bit of respect towards my wife. Ta muchly mate.

Gibster.

[Julian]

Jack, I think in answer to your question, it may just be that fracking will poison the environment. There is evidence which would suggest such.

Are you sad or bothered that your OP has developed into something of a discussion about the pros and cons of fracking?

As for what wildlife was/is there, clearly it would be more concerning if you had rare species there (not that an yone has yet answered your question) but, and I hesitate to use the following example, supposing there were no wildlife there, supposing it was just a barren agricultural field, would you still be happy if fracking chemicals which can leak into the environment, were allowed to contaminate the area? Barton Moss sounds like it might be wet... The concrete containment of the pipes have been found to crack in the past, allowing leakage into the water supply. Sounds like a recipe for disaster... as does the following example:

We have a small but significant population of Silver-studded Blues in Ipswich. One isolated heathland population discovered less than ten years ago has been blighted by the building of an oil storage depot on the front half of it. The council in its wisdom allowed them to build, even though BC Suffolk wrote objections. The firm that built or developed the site (yes-'development') dumped spoil from the site onto the remaining SSB heathland, ruining about a quarter of it but the best bit, on the southern edge. The county wildlife trust got onto them but the developers have done nothing by way of compensation or rectifying the situation. When the developers put their fence up for security, I watched as they finished painting the last section, with the wind blowing the paint spray all over the heather used by the remaining butterflies. So much for safe developments and oil. The shortcuts and devilment this company took in getting their development approved says it all, but to be fair, we have not had the oil tanks explode yet. On the other hand, one of their employees or an agent of the site owner, possibly, also smashed my car wing mirrors presumably in retaliation for my objecting to their proposal. Yes I drive there.


As for nimby-ism, Yes, true, there are elements of this in many environmental campaigns. Why? If there are serious environmental concerns then IMHO it's a just cause. Thank heavens that people are moved to protest. I think the anti- fracking campaign is justified in this case. Whether there are NIMBY's amongst the protesters or not. There are serious concerns about environmental impact and with the PM giving his support to it, the problem could crop up elsewhere in the UK. It could soon be in your back yard.

Dave. ' A reliable source of cheap energy?' Remember when nuclear promised cheap and even free energy (sorry, you're probably too young) but the point is, fracking is unreliable, dirty, and one you make yourself.... environmentally damaging. It is a difficult one, made the more so by all the lies promulgated by the oil industry. Teh sad thing is that so m any of us are hoodwinked by it. I hope you can come to a decision.

As to the Swampy's of this world. What are you saying? Surely you're not denigrating these people are you? Why would we all be stuffed if everyone followed the the Swampy example? You seem to be aware at least in part of the potential for environmental damage for which such blessed souls risk all (considerable risk to themselves). Are you aware of the complete environmental crisis this world is facing? Far more enlightened people than I hold this view. Far from the Dark Ages that you suggest if we reacted like the Green Party, I think it would also be a more enlightened age than that in which we live today. Just my opinion.

P.J.U You would expect its effects to be minimal. Let's hope that no catastrophe comes about as a direct result of it. The nuclear industry was once held to be safe. It isn't really.

Maverick. Yes, probably the sites are small for now but they might be wide ranging. I accept your point about the possibilities for some of such areas as having wildlife potential but it's the overriding concern that fracking is dangerous that doesn't make right any consolation. I like your positive attitude, seriously, but I always feel there's a danger in taking the approach that let's them in by the back door, because such industries get a certain amount of environmental support. There's some good habitat around Sizewell A and B Nuclear (UNCLEAR) Power Stations, but I'd rather not have a nuclear power station leaking into the North Sea. On the positive side, the fishermen do well with the warm outflows from the power station attracting 'Sea' Bass for them to catch and flog to the restaurants. They do a roaring trade.

Finally, thank you Sami for your efforts. I think you're a brave lady for standing up for what you believe in. As are the others protesters

[Jack Harrison]

Shortly off to the mainland to get my tin of paint (see my earlier post). Unfortunately, the winds are quite light today so it's debatable if the environmentally-friendly sail-powered ferry will get me to Oban before Home Base closes

Sorry, I'd forgotten. This is the 21st century and Caledonian MacBrayne Ferries have modernised.

Jack