Code of Conduct?

Tom Ottley · Post by **Tom Ottley** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:31 pm

Looking at the postings concerning buying breeding stock from dealers where perhaps the origin of the stock is unclear made me wonder if there isn't scope for signing up to a member's code of conduct.

I'm sure people will come up with suggestions for this and it might include not buying stock from dodgy dealers!

Any suggestions for this - would it be useful? Would you sign up? I am assuming Pete could come up with the technology (he's rather good at that)

Tom

Post by **Padfield** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:37 am

I'd be all for publishing a list of guidelines, perhaps in the form of a code of conduct. I think this could be very helpful. But I wouldn't be so happy with requiring acceptance of such a code before allowing access to these forums, if that's what you meant. My view is that we should certainly moderate inappropriate comments but not actually censure inappropriate people!

Guy

Tom Ottley · Post by **Tom Ottley** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:04 am

Definitely voluntary! I must admit to having second thoughts after posting that since it was bound to be controversial and my guess is that it's something we all aspire to anyway. Having started the thread I'll be pleased to receive any other comments though.

I noted Pete's comments concerning trampling at a well known site earlier in the year and when we were all photographing Duke of Burgundy recently I for one was standing on its foodplant! It's easy to forget such things.

As for breeding stock I guess we could have a list of reputable suppliers which one or more members have vetted in some way (if they are reputable they won't mind answering a few questions).

Tom

Andrew R · Post by **Andrew R** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:46 am

I was wondering why people want to breed butterflies?
You can not release them into the wild, and they are only of use to people who have large butterfly houses.
I hear people getting all excited by the thought of breeding butterflies and the same people disgusted at the thought of butterflies being used as set specimens.
The majority of people who sell eggs, etc are dealers/collectors who sell these stocks so that the collectors can have the perfect A1 specimens.
The stocks are also used to create abs which command high prices on the open market.
If people really want to help conservation then they should look more to joining a local group and managing the area around them.
To buy stocks for breeding is the same as buying a cheap sat nav from the local chav down the pub. It only fuels the fire for more inacceptable activity!

Regards Andy

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:55 am

"I was wondering why people want to breed butterflies?"
To study them.

"You can not release them into the wild"
Depends what they are - some you can't legally reintroduce but others, such as (say) Red Admiral, you can.

"and they are only of use to people who have large butterfly houses"
Actually, I've reared Orange-tip larvae on a window sill.

"I hear people getting all excited by the thought of breeding butterflies and the same people disgusted at the thought of butterflies being used as set specimens"
It doesn't follow that bred butterflies will end up as set specimens.

"The majority of people who sell eggs, etc are dealers/collectors who sell these stocks so that the collectors can have the perfect A1 specimens"
Really? Where did you get that information from?

"If people really want to help conservation then they should look more to joining a local group and managing the area around them"
They can do that too

Cheers,

- Pete

Andrew R · Post by **Andrew R** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:44 pm

Study butterflies in the wild.
You can not guarentee that the butterflies being released are from disease free stock.
Just because people take a few nice photos of butterflies it does not make them butterfly experts. Granted they might have a good knowledge of differnet species but leave nature as it was intended.
You only need to see who are selling the eggs, etc. Butterfly Connections and Worldwide Butterflies. Take a good look at what they sell. If you can see butterfly conservation in those two companies then I will stand corrected.
The majority of live stock has come from Europe.

Regards Andy

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:07 pm

Andrew
Some of your statements are very generalised and unreasoned.
I study butterflies in the wild and also breed them to study.
Historically amateur entomologists have contributed greatly to our knowledge of British butterflies and moths.
Robert Gooden (founder of WWB) is a knowledgeable and well respected entomologist who has published many books on the subject of British Butterflies and their conservation.

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:13 pm

"You can not guarentee that the butterflies being released are from disease free stock"
I think you're mixing a couple of topics together - native stock versus non-native stock, and captive-bred stock versus wild stock.

"Just because people take a few nice photos of butterflies it does not make them butterfly experts"
I'm not sure what you're getting at here

In general - I agree that anyone rearing livestock should act responsibly. What I don't agree with is that nobody should rear livestock. For example, school children (the next generation of enthusiasts!) can get a lot of benefit from rearing in the classroom.

Anyway - I think a code of conduct makes a lot of sense since this topics is clearly *not* black and white!

Cheers,

- Pete

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:37 pm

Here's a starter for 10 to debate - a Code of Conduct ...

Never take livestock from the wild

Never purchase livestock from dealers when:
- The dealer is known to have violated this code of conduct

Never release livestock into the wild when:
- The species does not occur in the UK
- The livestock is from a non-UK or unknown source
- The number of individuals being released may result in excessive predation
- The release may disrupt conservation efforts
- In-breeding has occurred
- The species is listed in Schedule 5 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

Thoughts? I guess I've broken this myself when rearing Orange-tip larvae through, or Red Admiral! So perhaps the first one needs toning down

Cheers,

- Pete

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:44 pm

Pete
How will a code of conduct work as suggested? Members sign up not to purchase stock from 'dodgy dealers'. Who are the dodgy dealers? Most of us would not get stock from them anyway.
Amateurs regularly trade/buy livestock from each other like the AES or ELG not commercial breeders.
As long as everybody subscribes to BC code for introductions etc that is all that is required.

Ha posts crossed. Still think this is not necessary though.

Andrew R · Post by **Andrew R** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:15 pm

Lance wrote:Andrew
Some of your statements are very generalised and unreasoned.
I study butterflies in the wild and also breed them to study.
Historically amateur entomologists have contributed greatly to our knowledge of British butterflies and moths.
Robert Gooden (founder of WWB) is a knowledgeable and well respected entomologist who has published many books on the subject of British Butterflies and their conservation.

Lance,
I would agree that historically amateur entomologists have done a great job of contributing to our knowledge of butterflies.
But in this age of ever declining species and habitats things take a different turn. In the late 1800's and early 1900's there were greater stocks of butterflies.
I have read Robert Goodens books and I respect his knowledge for entomology. I do not agree with the selling of eggs, etc to anyone who has the money to buy them.
Fair enough if recognised entomologists wish to breed stocks for study.
I do not think that the man in the street should have access to this area.
It also worries me to think that people who collect butterflies might use sites like this to gain knowledge of sites with rare species on them.
By making sites known are we doing more harm than good?

Cheers Andy

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:33 pm

"It also worries me to think that people who collect butterflies might use sites like this to gain knowledge of sites with rare species on them.
By making sites known are we doing more harm than good?"
All of the conservation charities list the sites they own. Based on that, I can only assume that the benefit outweighs the downside, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Cheers,

- Pete

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:37 pm

Pete Eeles wrote:"It also worries me to think that people who collect butterflies might use sites like this to gain knowledge of sites with rare species on them.
By making sites known are we doing more harm than good?"
All of the conservation charities list the sites they own. Based on that, I can only assume that the benefit outweighs the downside, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Cheers,

- Pete

Me too though i have to say the information is freely available from other sources. Anyone who has the knowledge to carry out a bit of research will get the info they require.
I would rather that collectors bought or bred their own specimens from breeders rather than visiting actual sites to collect them and i do not think they would get away with waving a net around in pursuit of rare species. At least butterflies are safe at night too

unlike bird's eggs.
No it is the not the relatively small number of collectors (past and present) that have decimated butterfly populations in the UK. It is the relentless continued destruction of habitat.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:36 am

"Never Take livestock from the wild"

Not mad about this one. I have a 6 year old little girl who I attempt to generate some kind of enthusiasm for butterflies (I have limited success, thought she knows the names) and should I find a gang of large white caterpillars on the nasturtiums I don't see it as a problem to take some, stick 'em in a jar with food and watch them grow.

I also have a want to find a nest of small torts and raise them on nettles, just cause I've always wanted to do it since I was an egg. I'e still to find a nest though!

Danny

Tom Ottley · Post by **Tom Ottley** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:02 pm

Danny - I'd have no problem with that either and I guess it's the way a lot of us became interested in the first place, so lets hope your little girl becomes as enthusiastic as us when she gets a bit older!

What I do have a problem with is commercial beeders taking nests of Marsh Fritillaries for example (larvae for sale "ex Hampshire" I saw recently). I assume it's the reason Hants group don't publish precise locations for that species. When a population is under stress for other reasons, collecting is just wrong.

Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread I started. It's interesting seeing all the different viewpoints.

Tom

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:07 pm

Tom Ottley wrote:for example (larvae for sale "ex Hampshire" I saw recently). Tom

If I saw that I'd be straight down to the Police Station!

Martin.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:08 am

Yes I think some commercial people taking nests of Marsh Frit Larvae would not be in keeping with conservational thingies. I'd be inclined to use the ole digital camera, or/and quiz em "Where can I buy some of your livestock?" and then when I had the details report em to DEFRA or the Old Bill.

Danny

George · Post by **George** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:54 pm

What an interesting thread!

I too have a problem with collectors / breeders taking anything endangered from the wild.

Surely it is common sense that should prevail here - it is presumably "ok" to take Peacock larvae (but not thousands!) for example as they are relatively common but I don't think anyone on this forum would ever consider taking for example Purple Emperor or Glanville Fritillary from the wild.

I also agree with Lance that the main reason that so many of our species are in decline is the destruction of their habitat. It is common nowadays to see new buildings and roads springing up in areas where I can remember spending many a long hour watching butterflies. I am afraid that until someone convinces the governement (local and national) to do something constructive (no pun intended!) to preserve some areas and equally importantly retain some "corridors" so that butterflies (and other wildlife) can move between sites then our species will continue to suffer.

I always used to think of the Wall Brown as a very common butterfly but I now worry that in a few years it will be no more.

I could go on but fear that I already have!

Rogerdodge · Post by **Rogerdodge** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:36 pm

I recently returned (briefly) to the street I lived in until I was 13 (1955 to 1968).
It is in the suburbs of South West London.
Our neighbour had a huge buddlea with regular Red Ads, Peacock, Sm Tort, and occasional Comma. We also saw Wall 2 or 3 times a year, and I saw my first ever SWFrit there too (at age 8, and it fired off my passion for butties and all things wild!!). Our gardens had all 3 whites, and occasional Orange Tips. We also saw Holly Blue, and, in the park up the road had Ringlet and Meadow Brown with a few Common Blue.
Now............ nothing - sod all. I spoke to someone there who KNEW wildlife, and he told me they see almost no butterflies at all!!!!
The park is now much smaller, all the old wild areas have gone with manicured turf, and no scrub left.
The large gardens are now nearly all patio and decking or tarmac (the old front gardens are now hardstanding for 4 vehicles!)
We all had ponds back then - now none (too much like hard work)!
Luckily I now live in rural North Devon and have the means to travel around.
We live in sad times

Roger Harding

Tom Ottley · Post by **Tom Ottley** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:48 pm

Well George, that's interesting about the purple emperor. I remember seeing 'that' TV proram with Matthew Oates in it where he was rearing larvae under some netting in (his?) garden. I can't think of anyone I'd trust more with the care of this particular species and please note he would have obtained a licence. I presume we all agree that's OK?

Regards

Tom