Wisley butterflies for ID

[Philzoid]

It's taken me some to work out correct identifications of the Cethosia species of butterflies at the annual Wisley butterflies event. Until fairly recently I'd accepted the spotter guide handout's name and picture of "Cethosia biblis Malay Lacewing" as being correct. However, Wurzel's posting in his PD (page 30) showed that I'd got it wrong, as had those who had compiled the guide

Picture is not Cethosia biblis but may be Malay Lacewing?

Ironically the butterfly actually present in previous years and in the early part of this 2013 exhibition, was biblis but the correct common name should be Red Lacewing not Malay Lacewing

Red Lacewing not Malay as I named it in a previous post

Biblis taken the earlier part of this year's event

Open wing male Cethosia biblis Red Lacewing

. The confusion was further compounded with one of the same guide pictures fixed to the raised level railing was named "Cethosia hypsea". C. Hypsea is indeed the "Malay Lacewing" but the picture looked like ones that Wurzel had named "Cethosia cyane" or "Leopard Lacewing". Just when I was thinking it might be another Wisley picture or naming error Cethosia 'hypsea' started to turn up.
So to cut a long story short I'm now having difficulty differentiating between hypsea and cyane Malay or Leopard Lacewings (biblis is easy ) and I've only have photos and sightings of males.

Malay or Leopard Lacewing?

Malay or Leopard Lacewing?

Malay or Leopard Lacewing?

I've also encountered an unlisted swallowtail which is causing difficulty in identification. It is either Papilio demoleus or Papilio demodocus and I've tentatively concluded that the butterfly is demoleus after poring over lots of internet images and taking into account that demoleus the Chequered or Lime Swallowtail appears to be the more common of the two

Papilio demoleus? male?

. Demoleus has a large and increasing range and is considered a pest for citrus fruit growers as its larvae can repeatedly defoliate trees. Papilio demodocus or Citrus swallowtail is confined to Sub-saharan Africa and is also considered a pest but the ranges of the two species do not overlap. Despite their very similar morphology they are not thought to be closely related.
The second photo shows another of these swallowtails from a later visit

Papilio demodocus or demoleus female?

. This one is considerably larger than the first (see picture) but the size discrepancy could simply be due to it being a different sex the female being the larger? There again, the African or Mocker Swallowtail (Papilio dardanus) is featured at Wisley so could it be another of the African species:- demodocus? Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the undersides although I'm not sure this would help.

Anyone have any thoughts on this please?

Phil

[Wurzel]

Alright Philzoid cracking shots there
I looked on a website called butterflycircle.com and they show Malay Lacewing with loads of black on the forewing upper side and only one white band on the underside hind wing so I'm guessing that these are Leopards

I hope someone can help you with the Swallowtail as I have some shots of a similar one which I need to ID

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[Mark Colvin]

Hi Phil,

Anyone have any thoughts on this please?

I'd go demoleus (pictured below) for the first and demodocus for the second.

Good hunting.

Kind regards. Mark

[Philzoid]

Thanks for you replies Wurzel and Mark Your answers are the ones I was leaning towards, but it's hard to be certain on photos alone plus the various internet images can be unreliable. WRT the Malay lacewing, some images show a sub-species hypsina (C. hypsea hypsina) and their undersides look sufficiently distinct so as not to confuse with C. cyane. Other images cyane and hypsea look exactly the same . I'll check out your website Wurzel.

WRT the citrus swallowtail, the tornal eyespots look different on your picture Mark compared to the ones on mine but I'm not sure that is significant .

The one downside of these events is that the staff present, are given very little information to relay to punters like me who ask awkward questions such as "what's that butterfly " (let alone where is it from?). This year in particular has been hard for them as they've had a lot of unlisted stuff (14 species for me so-far) as well as the mis-identified. I now suspect that their Catanophele orites might be C. acontius .

Phil

Great fun tho

[Padfield]

Hi Philzoid. I'm interested you say demoleus and demodocus are not thought to be closely related. They appear next to each other in phylogenetic tables and at least until recently were grouped together with three Madagascan endemics as the 'demoleus group'. Do you have a source for that information?

All these photos of exotica from Wisley and elsewhere almost inspired me to take a trip to our Swiss equivalent, the Papiliorama near Neuchâtel, this half term! But the return travel would have been CHF 50 so I'll wait until during my sabbatical, when I plan to buy a year's pass for the transport system.

Guy

(I agree with Mark that the first appears to be demoleus and the second demodocus, though this is not an identification anyone would have to make in the wild!)

[Philzoid]

Apologies for the late reply. Have been back to Wisley again this morning and took the kids swimming this afternoon. No demoleus or demodocus seen but another cyane/hypsea candidate, and new species which were: a few fresh Troides rhadamantus (Golden Birdwings), a single Danaus plexippus (Monarch) a Caligo Eurilochus (Giant Forest Owl) ...as well as the usual suspects .

I agree with Mark that the first appears to be demoleus and the second demodocus,

Thanks for the further confirmation

though this is not an identification anyone would have to make in the wild!)

Yes that's true . The butterfly houses priority is to just put on an ooh and ahh show with a hotch potch of species identified as suitable for this type of envronment. In the wild you have the location which adds a further clue to the ID and in the case of demoleus v demodocus provides the answer.

I'm interested you say demoleus and demodocus are not thought to be closely related. They appear next to each other in phylogenetic tables and at least until recently were grouped together with three Madagascan endemics as the 'demoleus group'. Do you have a source for that information?

I remember seeing that statement when I was scanning the web for info but I can't remember where i saw it Must admit at the time I thought it questionable, but being hell bent on getting an ID I didn't record the source .

Will have to go back for another look. Watch this space.

Phil

[Philzoid]

I remember seeing that statement when I was scanning the web for info but I can't remember where i saw it Must admit at the time I thought it questionable, but being hell bent on getting an ID I didn't record the source .

Will have to go back for another look. Watch this space.

Guy. The Website is:- "Learn about Butterflies the complete guide to the world of butterflies and moths". The statement re demodocus :- "The butterfly bears a remarkable resemblance to P. demoleus, an Oriental species found from n.e. Arabia to the Philippines, and which also occurs in Australasia. The two species however are not as closely related as their appearance would seem to indicate".

http://www.learnaboutbutterflies.com/Af ... odocus.htm

I may have mis-iterpreted the statement to some degree .

Phil