Skipper ID please

[Roger Gibbons]

I would say 95% Olive (serratulae) from the underside shot – the discal mark in s1 and the marginal mark in s2 are spot-on for serratulae and the discal mark in s4/5 looks good too; the basal mark in s7 is sufficiently rounded for serratulae in my book but there are those who believe that if is not a classic oval it is not serratulae. Add to that the marginal mark on v5 looks to short and not sufficiently regular for Carline (carlinae), and the discal space in s2 is often empty for carlinae, and Nigel’s is not.

However, the upperside does not look classic serratulae but as we have found before, serratulae can wander some way from the book illustrations of being largely unmarked on the hindwing and having smallish marks on the forewing. The hindwing has the degree of marking I would expect from carlinae and the forewing cell mark is almost within the acceptable limits of the dreaded C shape of carlinae. Very puzzling. There have been a few like that this year, conflicting evidence.

I assume they are the same butterfly. Very nice underside photo and the upperside is very good as well.

If Guy agrees serratulae, I think you can be confident.

[Padfield]

It should be remembered that carlinae, sensu stricto, doesn't fly in Spain, being replaced there by cirsii, which is a very different beast. In my experience, cirsii has much more pronounced hindwing markings on the upperside, as well as the famous 'waving flag' on the forewing. I would rule that species out.

On balance, I agree with Roger that this is probably serratulae. Another feature, which he didn't mention, is the almost complete white marginal band, similar to that of carthami, around the hindwing underside, which is quite common in serratulae. The hindwing underside colour is wrong, but cameras do, strangely, turn the olive green of some Pyrgus undersides into a kind of sandy orange given half a chance.

Most of the underside markings are spot on for serratulae, as Roger says. Some are not - notably the 'oval' spot - but it comes as no surprise to seasoned Pyrgus watchers to find that the same species across its range has very different markings. I am familiar with serratulae in the Alps and Pyrenees, not central Spain.

In short, although this butterfly entirely lacks the feel of serratulae I find it difficult to call it anything else. The altitude precludes some southern variant of alveus and it's quite unlike any armoricanus I've ever seen.

An interesting insect. Assuming it is serratulae, I've just learnt a new form!

Guy

[CFB]

Could someone help me with this one please. I assumed it was a Grizzled Skipper, but as the upper-hind post-discal spots are not well defined, perhaps it isn't. I didn't get to see the underside . I saw it at about 100 metres altitude in the Alpes-Maritimes.

--
Thanks, Colin

[Padfield]

Despite the submarginal/postdiscal markings being rather obscure I still think this is most likely malvoides. The whiteness of the discal mark, as well as its shape and the other hindwing markings, are good for malvoides, as is the strong double spot at the base of s.1 on the forewing.

I'm not 100% but that would be my guess.

Guy

[CFB]

Thanks Guy. Let's see what Roger says .
--
Colin

[Roger Gibbons]

I agree with Guy for the same reasons. Also, it is difficult to imagine what other species it could be. As, I think, Hercule Poirot (or maybe Sherlock Holmes) said: once the impossible has been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth. This is often the mechanism for Pyrgus ID.

In the field, size would be a factor.

[Nigel Kiteley]

Firstly a belated thank you to Guy and Roger for identifying the Olive Skipper i posted here last month, much appreciated chaps.

I have another couple of Skippers that i would like you to take a look at. They were both photographed in the mountains north of Madrid a couple of weeks ago. The first one was photographed at around 1500m and the second at 1800m.

Thank you in advance for any help .

[Padfield]

Hi Nigel.

Your second skipper is cinqfoil, Pyrgus cirsii (in some books, Pyrgus carlinae cirsii). It is absolutely classic in every way and leaves little room for doubt. On the upperside forewing, the very square cell spot and the confluent pd spots in s.1, looking like a waving flag, together with the overall heavily marked, blocked pattern, all point to this species. The colour of the underside and many other details are almost unmistakeable.

The first butterfly is not cirsii and I would go for armoricanus (Oberthür's grizzled skipper). Against this ID are the underside colour, which is very subdued, and the very weak pd markings in ss.2-3. But the upperside looks very like armoricanus. The only alternative would be a form of alveus, but this falls at some of the same hurdles (the uns colour is better, though). I can't see any other species it could be - Roger's input would be interesting.

Guy

[Nigel Kiteley]

Hi Guy,

Thanks for the quick reply.

My Spanish girlfriend and i were angling towards Oberthür's grizzled for the first one due to the upperside markings, as you pointed out. We were also pretty sure that the second one was indeed Pyrgus carlinae cirsii which is the one i thought i had in June that turned out to be Olive. I'm very pleased to have seen and photographed all three species as they are all lifers.

Thank you once again Guy, i too will be interested in Roger's input.

[Roger Gibbons]

I agree with Guy 100%. Cirsii is unmistakeable with a clear view of either upperside or underside. The uph markings are a pale creamy-white when fresh, which I believe is only true for cirsii.

The 1b upperside is almost certainly armoricanus and the 1a underside markings are generally quite good (but not classic) for armoricanus as well, the main reservations being the ground colour and the veins, where armoricanus is generally darker brown and the veins are usually quite prominent. Maybe the fact that this underside doesn’t quite match up is an effect of the camera angle etc, but the combination of both surfaces cannot really be anything else.