Many thanks, Henry Kemm
Essex or small please?
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Henry.Kemm
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Essex or small please?
I am either stupid or confused or both, but I have looked at many examples on the net and in my book and I can prove that they are neither, depending what I look at. They came from different places on different days. At least I think that they are both the same species.
Many thanks, Henry Kemm
Many thanks, Henry Kemm
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Pete Eeles
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Hi Henry - both of these individuals look like females to me (since the sex brand is missing) - females being the hardest to ID!
I'm tempted to say that these are both Small Skipper. The antennae of Essex Skipper really do look like they've been dipped in a tin of black paint, with a very distinctive change in colour in the tips of the antenna. This is best seen from below (rather than above) as shown on Adrian Hoskins' website at:
http://www.learnaboutbutterflies.com/Bu ... 202007.htm
Look at the 8th July entry.
Cheers,
- Pete
I'm tempted to say that these are both Small Skipper. The antennae of Essex Skipper really do look like they've been dipped in a tin of black paint, with a very distinctive change in colour in the tips of the antenna. This is best seen from below (rather than above) as shown on Adrian Hoskins' website at:
http://www.learnaboutbutterflies.com/Bu ... 202007.htm
Look at the 8th July entry.
Cheers,
- Pete
Last edited by Pete Eeles on Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pete Eeles
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Henry.Kemm
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When is an essex not a small
Thanks for the help, I am still not sure that I understand Brian's remark "did you mean ESSEX?" because I thought Pete said Essex.
Just to make sure I understand (I think) that first if there is no change in colour of the antennae, then it is a small. If there is a change in colour, and the tip is black, it is an Essex. If Orange/brown it is a small.
Just to make sure I understand (I think) that first if there is no change in colour of the antennae, then it is a small. If there is a change in colour, and the tip is black, it is an Essex. If Orange/brown it is a small.
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Henry.Kemm
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Try again
While I was composing my previous reply, Brian put his latest comments up, and now I am confused again. Pete, could you please rewrite what you meant to say in the first place, or perhaps confirm my understandin (provided that it is right).
Many thanks, Henry
Many thanks, Henry
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Pete Eeles
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Apols for the confusion! The key points are:
1. I think they're both Small Skipper
2. In my experience, in Small Skippers, there is only a small graduation in colour towards the ends of the tip of the antenna (when seen from the upperside). In Essex Skippers, I've found that there is more of a marked colour difference as you move along the antenna to the tip (it's not gradual). But perhaps I need to look closer!
Cheers,
- Pete
1. I think they're both Small Skipper
2. In my experience, in Small Skippers, there is only a small graduation in colour towards the ends of the tip of the antenna (when seen from the upperside). In Essex Skippers, I've found that there is more of a marked colour difference as you move along the antenna to the tip (it's not gradual). But perhaps I need to look closer!
Cheers,
- Pete
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Padfield
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I think this topic is important enough to risk sowing the seeds of more confusion!!
In general, I agree with Pete and others, about the colour gradations of 'typical' skipper antennae. HOWEVER, this individual exhibits some melanism and this is reflected in the continuous dark of the antennae as well as in the wings. Essentially, she has more black pigment all over her than they show in the books! Thus, generalisations about the colour of typical individuals probably don't apply to her.
I have seen melanism in both small and Essex skippers, but the concentration of black along the veins suggests Essex to me in this case (though this effect can also be found in small skipper). I may be totally wrong and don't want to contradict Pete or anyone else.
The moral? I think it is only possible to be confident about individuals like this if you can get a glimpse of the underside of the antennae, which rarely lie (though the bright brown of small skipper can wear off in old specimens). Thus, I think it best to hang off and get a good view with close-focus binoculars or monocular and identify the species before going in for that perfect photograph!
Here is a pair of 'typical' small skippers. There is no doubt about the identity, as the male sex brand is definitive (and I saw it better than it shows here). The female is above - notice how totally different she looks from the atypical female in this post! She's bright orange all over, and the antennae are also light above.
Guy
edit: Sorry - I didn't notice the bit about these being different individuals in different places and on different days. In my experience, that marginally increases the likelihood of their being Essex skippers, since I have found more melanism in this species. But that probably varies from locality to locality.
In general, I agree with Pete and others, about the colour gradations of 'typical' skipper antennae. HOWEVER, this individual exhibits some melanism and this is reflected in the continuous dark of the antennae as well as in the wings. Essentially, she has more black pigment all over her than they show in the books! Thus, generalisations about the colour of typical individuals probably don't apply to her.
I have seen melanism in both small and Essex skippers, but the concentration of black along the veins suggests Essex to me in this case (though this effect can also be found in small skipper). I may be totally wrong and don't want to contradict Pete or anyone else.
The moral? I think it is only possible to be confident about individuals like this if you can get a glimpse of the underside of the antennae, which rarely lie (though the bright brown of small skipper can wear off in old specimens). Thus, I think it best to hang off and get a good view with close-focus binoculars or monocular and identify the species before going in for that perfect photograph!
Here is a pair of 'typical' small skippers. There is no doubt about the identity, as the male sex brand is definitive (and I saw it better than it shows here). The female is above - notice how totally different she looks from the atypical female in this post! She's bright orange all over, and the antennae are also light above.
Guy
edit: Sorry - I didn't notice the bit about these being different individuals in different places and on different days. In my experience, that marginally increases the likelihood of their being Essex skippers, since I have found more melanism in this species. But that probably varies from locality to locality.
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Pete Eeles
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Some excellent insights Guy! I stand corrected, and have absolutely no problem in being contradicted. I'm here to learn just like everyone else, and can honestly say I've learned more from these forums, on exchanges like this, than I've ever learned from books! I'm glad I added the forums to the UK Butterflies websitepadfield wrote:I may be totally wrong and don't want to contradict Pete or anyone else
Cheers,
- Pete