Wisley, etc

[Susie]

I must say it is nice to have a lively debate on here.

There's an interesting little article in the paper today saying that some scientists have discovered that some plants have a form of communication. Isn't it remarkable how people have to be paid lots of money to prove stuff some of us knew anyway. I am sure in time they will prove that plants feel pain. Maybe not in the same way as we do but in their own way. That'll bring a whole new dimension to the idea of cruelty and give vegetarians something to ponder .....

And is this another of my wildly tangental posts? ... Well yes and no. If we are to shun butterfly farms because they are exploitative and cruel then surely the same principles should be exercised in all areas of our lives? Everything in life is connected and should not be considered in isolation. So where is the line drawn?

As an aside I once got banned from a vegetarian forum because I said carrots feel pain ... Hopefully the UK Butterfly community won't react quite so severely!

[Susie]

surely these butterflies don't know it's unnatural for them. if they had been bought in from the wild i'd be more inclined to argree with you.

I do wonder about that actually. I wonder how much genetic memory there is of an environment resident in some creatures. Perhaps more than we give credit for but again it's not something that's easily quantifiable.

Many of us know which type of habitat we prefer though and I am sure the same goes for them.

Matthew Oates talked at one of the UK butts meetings about a sense of spiritual home and I don't see why people should be the only ones to feel this.

[David M]

If one takes up a contrary position, then it could be postulated that Butterfly Zoos and their ilk are beneficial because vastly greater numbers of the livestock in question are not subjected to predation.

The real world is bloody cruel. It's nice that we humans give a few random individuals the opportunity to live a peaceful and peril-free life!

[johnv]

That'll bring a whole new dimension to the idea of cruelty and give vegetarians something to ponder

Oh dear, I'll have to become a freshairian now

[David M]

Oh dear, I'll have to become a freshairian now

....until someone sets up a 'save the airborne micro-organisms' society.

[Pete Eeles]

I think it might be useful to consider 3 positions here - the species, the individual butterfly, and humans.

1. From a species perspective, butterfly zoos are a dead end because (generally) the offspring are never released back into the wild. At least the zoos we're discussing here. A benefit, as someone has pointed out, is that the source community may actually benefit financially and might then preserve habitat to farm the species more effectively. Maybe.
2. From the perspective of the individual butterfly, then it may lead a longer life, but its genes will never be passed on in the long run.
3. From the perspective of human beings, as has been discussed, it can foster an interest. It can also make a profit for the zoo's owners.

And so ...

If one takes up a contrary position, then it could be postulated that Butterfly Zoos and their ilk are beneficial because vastly greater numbers of the livestock in question are not subjected to predation.

But if passing on genes is a primary function in their lives, then I don't think that's much of an argument

Cheers,

- Pete

[Pete Eeles]

I wonder how much genetic memory there is of an environment resident in some creatures.

If you believe Darwin, then somewhere around 100% would be my figure

But evolution takes time, and I can't see a butterfly species living in a zoo for thousands of years such that it evolves to capitalise on the glass windows and artificial heat and lighting

Cheers,

- Pete

[ChrisC]

"But if passing on genes is a primary function in their lives" this could be said for every single species of everything on the planet and yet i don't see anyone saying it's cruel for me to have to work instead of battling rivals for females

can i also say that i can appreciate all views in this and the historical specimens debates and it really does make me proud to be a member of this forum. when a link to a french buttefly forum was posted on here a while back the category with the most subjects was the "trade your moths/butterflies" http://lepidoptera.forumactif.com/f6-pe ... 3606734678 36pages of it.

[Pete Eeles]

"But if passing on genes is a primary function in their lives" this could be said for every single species of everything on the planet and yet i don't see anyone saying it's cruel for me to have to work instead of battling rivals for females

If I were you, I'd bring this up with your boss on Monday and see what they can do for you - sounds like a viable argument to me

My genes are now in my children, so I spend most of my time ensuring that their genes continue, by acting as provider of food, clothing, lodgings, transport etc. etc.

I think that the dialogue on UKB is testament to the changed attitudes to collecting and conservation that we now have in Britain. Other places too of course. But it's a shame that many other regions of the world (that are still relatively-rich in fauna and flora) have yet to wake up to the value of their heritage, let alone do something about its inevitable decline.

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

There are multi-thousands of individuals passing on their genes in their natural environment. I don't think it's too much of a hardship for a few hundred to belong to zoos where people can come and derive a great deal of pleasure from observing them and their lifecycle in artificial conditions.

[Susie]

I would have thought that in butterfly farms they would have both male and female butterflies of a species flying together where ever possible. The butterflies will get a chance to mate and as they don't care for their offspring once they've hatched and the don't have the mental capacity to care about the longevity of their offspring either I don't see how this will distract from the female butterfly's quality of life (and the male has had his fun so he's happy!).

[Pete Eeles]

... will get a chance to mate and as they don't care for their offspring ... and don't have the mental capacity to care about the longevity of their offspring either ...

Sounds like a Jeremy Kyle show

Cheers,

- Pete

[Rogerdodge]

My genes are now in my children, so I spend most of my time ensuring that their genes continue, by acting as provider of food, clothing, lodgings, transport etc. etc

Pete
Surely, in the interests of your genetic continuity, you should still be mating with as many different females that you can get?
Hang on - that's Jeremy Kyle again.

[Susie]

My genes are now in my children, so I spend most of my time ensuring that their genes continue, by acting as provider of food, clothing, lodgings, transport etc. etc

Pete
Surely, in the interests of your genetic continuity, you should still be mating with as many different females that you can get?
Hang on - that's Jeremy Kyle again.

You're going to induce a mid life crisis in some of the males in this community if your not careful! surely it's less hassle to buy a Harley?

[Pete Eeles]

My genes are now in my children, so I spend most of my time ensuring that their genes continue, by acting as provider of food, clothing, lodgings, transport etc. etc

Pete
Surely, in the interests of your genetic continuity, you should still be mating with as many different females that you can get?
Hang on - that's Jeremy Kyle again.

I think 42 children is more than enough

Cheers,

- Pete

[Susie]

42? Just don't tell the wife, eh, Pete?

[MikeOxon]

May I pull back from procreation to the theme of 'playing God'. Padfield quoted a poem earlier so, perhaps, I could hark back to one, which will be familiar to many, from the schoolroom: Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "A Musical Instrument" (Great God Pan). I wonder if we understood the import of the final lines, which need to be assessed in the context of the whole poem:

"The true gods sigh for the cost and pain, --
For the reed which grows nevermore again
As a reed with the reeds in the river."

There are always balances and compromises that have to be made in decision-making: it's very difficult being a God!!!

Mike

[NickMorgan]

Certainly a lot of dilemmas been thrown up here. Many of them the sort of things I ask myself most days.
In reality the issue is that there are too many humans on this planet and the only hope for the natural environment would be for the human population to dramatically reduce in size. Not a pleasant thought, but the impact that we are having on the planet is getting close to the point of no-return. Maybe we are already there.
We each have an impact on the planet in some small way. I do my best to reduce my personal impact, (although sometimes I wonder why I bother!).
As well as the arguments about global warming the destruction of habitat is the real concern.
My aunt recently took my two kids to Edinburgh Zoo, and I joined them, to see the pandas. I watched the poor creatures in their reasonably nice cages and felt so sad that their numbers had reduced so much because of the destruction of their habitat. We were told that the money paid by Edinburgh Zoo to China for the loan of these pandas would be put towards buying land to connect together the fragmented habitat that remains in China. I question how successful that scheme would be if the population and aspirations of China continue to increase.
The zoo is a vast improvement on what it used to be. No elephants, giraffes, or other more common species that I remember from my childhood. Much larger enclosures and a lot of captive breeding programmes.
So, what do we do? An animal's habitat has been destroyed or compromised by the introduction of other species. We can just let them become extinct, or they can be kept alive in artificial environments. Surely it is better that they are kept in existence?
As Wurzel said Gerald Durrell did a lot of fantastic work to help to preserve some species. I saw pink pigeons in Mauritius which were brought back from the brink by his captive breeding programme. They were down to nine surviving specimens and there are now 400 of them in various locations on the island now.
I think that as Suzie said we have to all think about our actions and do what we think is right. Last year on a perfect day I drove 40 miles to go and see small blue butterflies on the Berwickshire coast. I managed to find the small site where they are found there and saw about 20 of them. When I walked back to my car I noticed that there were probably over 1000 dead flies splattered on it from the journey! So, two gallons of fuel and many deaths just so I could have look at some butterflies! Was it worth it? Difficult to know, but thousands of people drive that sort of distance each day just to go shopping for shoes!
When you think about the big picture, is it a few hundred butterflies in a glasshouse that we should be worrying about? What about the power used to heat and light such an establishment and what about the fuel used by people visiting the place?
Then if you worry about that, just think about the amount of people going to cinemas, shops, restaurants and football matches. They will be having a far bigger impact on the environment and hence the animals and plants that live within it.

[David M]

Last year on a perfect day I drove 40 miles to go and see small blue butterflies on the Berwickshire coast. I managed to find the small site where they are found there and saw about 20 of them. When I walked back to my car I noticed that there were probably over 1000 dead flies splattered on it from the journey! So, two gallons of fuel and many deaths just so I could have look at some butterflies! Was it worth it? Difficult to know, but thousands of people drive that sort of distance each day just to go shopping for shoes!
When you think about the big picture, is it a few hundred butterflies in a glasshouse that we should be worrying about? What about the power used to heat and light such an establishment and what about the fuel used by people visiting the place?
Then if you worry about that, just think about the amount of people going to cinemas, shops, restaurants and football matches. They will be having a far bigger impact on the environment and hence the animals and plants that live within it.

Some excellent points well made there.

Merely by existing we deprive huge numbers of other creatures of their lives.

[Susie]

I'm at Wisley now and the sheer joy on some of the little kiddies' faces as they see the butterflies is fabulous.