Wisley, etc

[johnv]

I must say I have been debating with myself for a couple of weeks concerning this issue. Should I upset the apparently universal approval displayed on this site for “exotic” butterfly exhibitions, or not? This post is the result of reaching a conclusion.

Well, where to start? Oh yes; all extremely pretty, good photo opportunities and very exotic – I agree.

But they are still zoos, aren’t they?

OK, one can argue it may stimulate interest in Lepidoptera, especially in the young and that’s certainly needed. But, does it? How many of us were initially turned on to butterflies by such exhibitions/events? Or know any REAL enthusiasts who were?

So, amongst the questions I raise are: -
Are they good for the individual insects?
Can species fully fulfil their evolved natural behaviour and lifecycle?
Does their presence in the UK help conservation in their native areas?
Does it help conservation of UK butterflies?

Thank goodness we no longer kill and display butterflies, in this country at least. But is this much better? Zoos, menageries, sea-life centres, dolphinariums and, yes, butterfly houses, do not have the interests of the individual animal, or species, uppermost; nor is their conservation usually a serious consideration. In my opinion those with a genuine interest in wildlife and its conservation should have worked this out by now.

OK, Lepidoptera are not the sentient beings that most vertebrates are. But that’s no excuse for thwarting their evolved natural instincts and drives by confining them both spatially and in an unnatural alien biome/environment.

These establishments are just money making attractions where the natural instincts of the animals are sacrificed to give a few thrills and eye-candy to our own overbearing species.

Quite frankly I find it quite worrying that there is so much enthusiasm shown for these menageries.

As we all know, butterflies have been in decline in the UK for decades. Do these ‘freak shows’ in any way help to redress this? Do they educate the public of the wider landscape and habitat requirements necessary to start reversing this trend? As far as I can see the answer is a very big “no”.

Sorry if my views are controversial but I say what I feel. To me all these “animal prisons” are abhorrent.

[Padfield]

You are quite right to open a debate on this and have expressed yourself in a careful and considered fashion, without appearing to attack those who enjoy butterfly farms.

I have calculatedly restricted myself to answering ID questions in these forums rather than express value judgments on butterfly farms. One reason is that butterfly farms do not begin to approach, at the level of animal exploitation, intensive chicken farms, for instance, and I tend to keep my powder dry for those battles.

SO, to address the four questions you ask, here are some quick answers:

1. Are they good for the individual insects? Without being all philosophical about the word 'good', I'd give a provisional 'yes' to this. In the wild, the vast, vast majority of butterflies get no adult life at all - whether because they die in the egg, are eaten or parasitised as a caterpillar, fail to find suitable or enough food, get washed out by storms &c. &c. In a butterfly farm most caterpillars that hatch enjoy a full feeding life through to pupation and most fly after that. After emerging they at least get a stable nectar supply and many have the opportunity to breed (I don't know to what extent they couple them artificially - others might be able to answer that).
2. Can species fully fulfil their evolved natural behaviour and lifecycle? That must depend on the species. I strongly suspect most adult butterflies on farms do not live out the full range of behavioural patterns they exhibit in the wild, for mostly obvious reasons.
3. & 4. Do they help conservation in their native countries and in the UK? I don't know the answers to these questions but they certainly could, if as commercial ventures they operate in partnership with butterfly conservation organisations.

In short, although I've never enjoyed visiting such attractions myself, I don't see any reason to regard them as cruel. I've been vegan for thirty years (and incidentally, don't wear silk because of silk farms) and am a life member of the BUAV but it's never occurred to me to campaign against butterfly farms. Nor do I see any reason to think they distract attention away from a real interest in butterflies or conservation efforts. I do entirely agree that they make living creatures a means to an end rather than treating them as ends in themselves and for that reason they are not my cup of tea. I'd far rather see the same butterflies in the wild, in their home countries. But not everyone has the opportunity to do that so it would be smug and unfair to play that card.

I could waffle on for hours but luckily for you lot I am in the middle of the teaching day and have to do some marking before next lesson!

Guy

[MikeOxon]

John, you make your case very clearly and I respect your view. So, why did I go to Wisley and enjoy it?

I went a couple of year ago and was a bit dismayed, as all the butterflies seemed very listless and simply clustered around the feeding stations. Perhaps it was near the end of the season. Then I went to a display at Kew and thought it very much better so, this year, I gave Wisley another look. This time, the butterflies appeared to be behaving normally - flying around, mating, laying eggs, as well as feeding.

Of course it is a commercial venture but I judged that the environment provided for the butterflies was good and they certainly gave a lot of pleasure to many people. So, on balance, I was content and I felt that it extended my vision beyond its usual range of British and European species. It was interesting, for example, to witness the different mode of flight of the larger species.

Perhaps one day, it will be possible for many more people to visit the tropical rainforests, which are their natural habitat (though that may lead to all sorts of ecological problems, too).

Thank you for stimulating me to think a bit more about this subject,

Mike

[Susie]

As much as I don't like to see animals suffer for my benefit Ihave no problem in using them to my own ends (personally I see that as nature's way and happily eat meat and wear animal products but humane treatment during their lifetime and a swift and pain free death is preferrable). Watching the butterflies at Wisley has given me pleasure. While I don't like to think of them being harmed I believe a pretty good environment is provided for them for their life span and that's good enough for me.

They tend to climb on the eco bandwagon at these things and try and hammer home the message about the environment and loss of rain forest so you never know, something good may come out of it. There also tends to be a lot of younger children taken to places like this and they love to see the butterflies so hopefully there may be generations of new lepidopterists as a result. I know I would have loved to have gone to a butterfly house when I was a child but I had never heard of such a thing until I went to Syon years later.

Edit: On rereading the initial post I can't help thinking that the person wants things to be "fair" for the butterflies when we all know that life isn't!

[Vince Massimo]

John, your views are very welcome and have opened a debate on a subject which was waiting to be a aired.

I enjoyed the butterflies at Wisley this year and it was my first ever visit. I personally went there, not only to appreciate their beauty, but also to observe behaviour (albeit in an artificial setting) of species that I would otherwise not usually encounter. In the process of reserching the identity of some of the species seen I also gained a useful insight into how overseas butterfly farms operate. I also found the staff at Wisley to be extremly attentive and have the welfare of the butterflies at heart. In particular, any butterflies that had become trapped near the windows were rescued and returned to the feeding stations. This applied even if the butterfly was old and tatty.

I'm sure the debate will continue.

Vince

[johnv]

Guy,

Thanks for your very considered reply.

butterfly farms do not begin to approach, at the level of animal exploitation, intensive chicken farms

True, and I'm fully with you on that. I too am vegan (25 years and veggie for 20 before that) and, as you may have detected, look at the world, and nature in particular, from an animal rights perspective. But, although HUGELY less exploitative than livestock agribusiness, that doesn't mean butterfly zoos are right, desirable or to be encouraged.

In the wild, the vast, vast majority of butterflies get no adult life at all - whether because they die in the egg, are eaten or parasitised as a caterpillar, fail to find suitable or enough food, get washed out by storms &c. &c. In a butterfly farm most caterpillars that hatch enjoy a full feeding life through to pupation and most fly after that.

Again true, but predation is essential to balanced ecosystems - otherwise we would all be knee-deep in butterflies/rats/whatever. But all this protection from predation achieves is an increased number of adults, which: -

I strongly suspect most adult butterflies on farms do not live out the full range of behavioural patterns they exhibit in the wild, for mostly obvious reasons.

You see where I'm coming from? This is the nub of my argument – the denial of the butterfly’s normal behaviour just so we can enjoy some eye-candy.

Do they help conservation in their native countries and in the UK? I don't know the answers to these questions but they certainly could, if as commercial ventures they operate in partnership with butterfly conservation organisations.

Well, yes, some make the effort to publicise BC, etc. - but to me this is akin to "greenwash". Their primary aim is to attract paying customers and the BC leaflet rack and posters strikes me as a guilt reduction exercise - a "how do we justify all this" bit of PR.

Nor do I see any reason to think they distract attention away from a real interest in butterflies or conservation efforts.

Maybe so, but do they actually HELP in these two desirable quests? While many (most/all?) who post on this site, included myself, get involved with hands-on conservation work on BC and other nature reserves, these establishments rake in the dosh whilst, to repeat what you say: -

most adult butterflies on farms do not live out the full range of behavioural patterns they exhibit in the wild

That, to me, is reprehensible.

I'd far rather see the same butterflies in the wild, in their home countries. But not everyone has the opportunity to do that so it would be smug and unfair to play that card.

I agree - but as the song goes "You can't always get what you want". I'd love to see many an exotic species, but for environmental reasons globetrotting is something that's out of the question for me. However, seeing them in an enclosed and unnatural environment, where their instincts and drives are to a large extent thwarted, is abhorrent. No, that’s not the way I want to see butterflies treated.

John

[legless2007]

I did worry, at the Natural History Museum butterfly house last year, that there were a lot of butterflies in a small space and there was a lot of what appeared to be territorial interaction going on. Must be stressful at some level to the animals?

They do have the potential to be great educational resources though, if presented in the right way.

[ChrisC]

where do you draw the line? aren't all nature reserves out door zoo's, artifically kept ecosystems for our "chosen " species. how many creatures are killed during "conservation" work parties.

Chris

[Susie]

As stated above I don't have a problem with butterfly events such as Wisley as the butterflies have a reasonable life.

I have more difficulty with farming butterflies for things such as jewellery and paper weights where they are killed almost immediately they emerge to ensure they are in pristine condition.

http://www.realinsect.net/snow.aspx

[legless2007]

As stated above I don't have a problem with butterfly events such as Wisley as the butterflies have a reasonable life.

I have more difficulty with farming butterflies for things such as jewellery and paper weights where they are killed almost immediately they emerge to ensure they are in pristine condition.

http://www.realinsect.net/snow.aspx

eww. that's grim

[Susie]

Indeed. My sentiments exactly. I find it interesting how opinions differ on what is acceptable though. I find that abhorrant but find butterfly farms ok. Johnv finds butterfly farms abhorrant. We are to have photos of collected specimens on this site. I wonder how many people find collecting abhorrant, although they may justify the collection if it's historical...

[Susie]

I'm also quite curious to know what constitutes a 'REAL enthusiast'. Answers on a postcard please.

I imagine there are quite a few real enthusiasts at the annual AES Exhibition at Kempton Park each year but there are quite a few stalls selling set specimens and even the insect jewellery.

[johnv]

Indeed. My sentiments exactly. I find it interesting how opinions differ on what is acceptable though. I find that abhorrant but find butterfly farms ok. Johnv finds butterfly farms abhorrant. We are to have photos of collected specimens on this site. I wonder how many people find collecting abhorrant, although they may justify the collection if it's historical...

Susie, I find these jewellery and paper weights totally abhorrant too.
But it could be argued that

where they are killed almost immediately they emerge to ensure they are in pristine condition

is preferable to an adult life in the environmental deprivation of a butterfly zoo.

An anthropomorphic view I grant you, but a valid point for debate.

John

[Susie]

Indeed, a vast topic for debate. Is it better to not be born than be born into slavery. And no need to apologise for an anthropomorphic view insofar as I am concerned, I believe there is far more in common between ourselves and other creature than is scientifically fashionable.

[johnv]

I'm also quite curious to know what constitutes a 'REAL enthusiast'. Answers on a postcard please.

I imagine there are quite a few real enthusiasts at the annual AES Exhibition at Kempton Park each year but there are quite a few stalls selling set specimens and even the insect jewellery.

Well Susie, nobody has risen to my original questions that you now comment on - has anyone on this forum, or anyone you know, got into butterflies through one of these exhibitions? I suspect not.
As for

I imagine there are quite a few real enthusiasts at the annual AES Exhibition at Kempton Park each year but there are quite a few stalls selling set specimens and even the insect jewellery.

and

We are to have photos of collected specimens on this site.

in reverse order, I have no objections to photos of historic collection (with the proviso that it clearly stated that collecting for collecting sake is as much a thing of the past as slavery, etc.). As mentioned above I am no fan of insect jewellery, and in my opinion selling set specimens should not be allowed at such exhibitions as it sends out all the wrong signals.

As for “Real enthusiasts”, well, I regard these as you and those who contribute to this site, those who lead field trips, who get involved in conservation, who enjoy the sheer beauty of butterflies and the sites they inhabit, who seek to do no harm to them or their environment and who record with the camera rather than the net.

[Padfield]

And no need to apologise for an anthropomorphic view insofar as I am concerned, I believe there is far more in common between ourselves and other creature than is scientifically fashionable.

Forgive me a complete tangent, but it is late and cold here and I have to go to bed. Susie's comment prompts me to share a link to one of my favourite poems - Heaven, by Rupert Brooke:

http://www.poetry-archive.com/b/heaven.html

It's not completely irrelevant.

Guy

[Philzoid]

I have just seen your posting John and feel compelled to respond (or put my foot in it ...whatever). To deal with your points first on a pragmatic level:-

Are they good for the individual insects?

Maybe, depends on what you mean by 'good' From what I have seen many of the insects go on to live 'normal lives' insomuch as they emerge, pump their wings up, fly around, nectar on the various flowers in the glasshouse, mate and (I'm told by the staff) lay their eggs. In short they appear to thrive. Some don't of course as the conditions may not be perfect to their requirements. Examples show deformed wings (usually caused by poor ermergence/emerging conditions) symptoms which can happen in the wild I might add; and some individuals disperse (population density pressure?) and with nowhere else to go end up getting trapped in the condensation on the glass. Perhaps stocking levels need to be altered, something for the events organisers to consider as they gain experience.

Can species fully fulfil their evolved natural behaviour and lifecycle?

I would infer as definitely in some cases (see comments above). Wildlife is constantly evolving to changing conditions as are the captive conditions which contain them.

Does their presence in the UK help conservation in their native areas?

In an indirect way , yes. By creating a market it stimulates the farmers local economy and with it by default, their understanding of how to make it work.

Does it help conservation of UK butterflies?

Yes again. Creating an interest ultimately means more people will search (and contribute to) websites and thereby come into contact with all manner of related subject matter including conservation. UK butterflies and such sites are valuable for this end.

Zoos, menageries, sea-life centres, dolphinariums and, yes, butterfly houses, do not have the interests of the individual animal, or species, uppermost; nor is their conservation usually a serious consideration. In my opinion those with a genuine interest in wildlife and its conservation should have worked this out by now.

I think that view is somewhat extreme. Although not the ideal, zoos have and do play a part in conservation.

May I ask you a question about your motives of your posting John? If you are genuinely distressed (as I believe you are) at the plight of the butterflies in these houses, and therefore if you could have your own way, would you like to see them banned outright? (I apologise in advance if this is not your intention) If so what would this do for the farmers who raise the pupae (and who presumably look after habitat to make the industry sustainable)? Their local economy would be shattered and they would then be forced to find alternative sources of income ...logging for example?

Conservation is a very very complex subject and habitat loss is I think we would all agree the biggest problem of all. Whether we like it or not humans are the (current) lords and masters of this planet, hard wired to survive and procreate just like any other species within the confines of their environment. Our population growth is the biggest threat to the planet as we know it but we don't see many people raising their heads above the parapet to tackle this issue. Denying people the pleasure of zoos etc on (dubious) moral grounds is not going to resolve it? “Zoos/menageries/butterfly houses/freak shows” have a role in stimulating interest and raising awareness, which can only be a good thing.

Phil

[Sylvie_h]

John has made a very good response and I totally agree with him.

Zoos do not work towards conservation. I was extremely appalled by some of the animals’ behaviour in zoos: a polar bear going round and round and moving his head from left to right continuously, a black mamba trying to bite at people through the glass, a tiger in its cage walking round and round and looking extremely distressed. This is not conservation, this is animal exploitation and yes it has raised my awareness in the sense that I do not want to set foot in a Zoo anymore.

I don’t believe that people will be more friendly towards the environment after a visit to a butterfly farm. The big majority will not stop using pesticides, weed killers or leave the nettles grow in their garden for the sake of butterflies, they will not start using less priting paper at work for the sake of the rainforest. People do not see that far unfortunately!

Sylvie

[Tony Moore]

Completely agree with Phil's last. We have too many bunny-huggers and hair shirts. What we need is a really virulent new bacterium or virus to (at least) decimate the global human population. Mankind might than have a second chance and, hopefully, would not make such a balls-up next time.

Tony M.

[Wurzel]

Sylvie I think that you made a bit of a sweeping statement there - perhaps a visit to Marwell or Bristol Zoo might provide you with substantial evidence to the contary. Both are excellent in terms of their educationally facilities and their captive breeding programs - they are essentially becoming biodiversity Arcs, maintaining some semblance of genetic information in the hope that we can reverse the damage that we have inflicted. Are we to do nothing and let them fall extinct?

Just out of interest what would you do of these establishments were to close down, would the animals be exterminated? A lot of them couldn't be released as they may be 3rd or more generation captive bred. By the way the kids film Madagascar deals with the problem in a highly entertaining fashion

Cheers. Wurzel