LOTSW II

[Paul]

A few more hopefully not all repeats...

[Roger Gibbons]

Guy mentioned the work I am doing on identifying Pyrgus species. This is largely based on the premise that some species can be identified from a single characteristic feature, but that feature can be very variable (you have seen the variation in the onopordi “anvil” mark) and ID can only be made by a combination of features, and possibly not even then. Undersides are of greater ID value than uppersides.

I have studied many photos, including the NHM archives (although most of these are uppersides) and was working on some kind of analysis when I left for France. This is where I got to:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/Pyrg ... cation.htm

The main conclusion so far is that, in many cases, there is no simple answer. Many, as we have seen from the LOTSW photos, just do not seem to precisely fit the template for any single species, but can usually be narrowed down to one of two species. Some patterns were starting to emerge, though, and I plan to get as many underside shots as I can (when they are puddling, plus the uppersides so ID is more reliable) and then review the evidence in the autumn.

[David M]

Much as I'm looking forward to my trip to southern France in July, I acknowledge that I am going to be taken well outside my comfort zone in terms of species identification.

Pyrgus is, for me, the hardest of all.

Thank God we've only got one in the UK!

[Pete Eeles]

Much as I'm looking forward to my trip to southern France in July, I acknowledge that I am going to be taken well outside my comfort zone in terms of species identification.

Pyrgus is, for me, the hardest of all.

Me too. Erebia are just as bad That's why we really appreciate the likes of Guy and Roger G. to help us out!

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

Much as I'm looking forward to my trip to southern France in July, I acknowledge that I am going to be taken well outside my comfort zone in terms of species identification.

Pyrgus is, for me, the hardest of all.

Me too. Erebia are just as bad That's why we really appreciate the likes of Guy and Roger G. to help us out!

Thanks for reminding me, Pete.

I daresay I'll be seeing a few of those too.

Perhaps I ought to post an apology thread now due to the amount of henpecking certain members are going to receive in a few weeks' time.

[NickB]

Yep - Good luck with those erebia
(Guy and Roger will love it, that's for sure.... )

I found my only half-decent picture of the Provencal Hairstreak - Mr Hairy-Legs himself...

[Padfield]

Looks as if some of your hairystreaks were on their last hairy legs, Nick! But I'm really glad you saw them.

Re Erebia, Pyrgus &c. I've just had a brilliant idea, though I doubt I'll ever do it.

As a maths teacher, I use books with graded exercises, so students can work incrementally through ideas and master them. How about something similar for Pyrgus or Erebia or the fritillaries - a book that actually taught you how to identify them? Those of us who live among these species gain practice and experience every year. But if you live in the UK and come out for a European holiday once a year it would be nice to gain that expertise with a 'teach yourself' book.

So, the chapter on skippers might begin with separating Spialia, Pyrgus, Carcharodus and Muschampia, for example. The text would explain the salient features, then the 'exercises' would be series of pictures of insects in varying states of wear, where the reader simply had to spot the genus. The 'hard' exercises would involve insects where the relevant features were obscure or concealed, so the reader needed a 'feel' for the groups. Then you'd move on to practising looking for certain spots, on the uppersides and undersides, and separating out the subgroups, always having an exercise at the end of each section and review exercises at the end of each chapter.

Just a thought.

Guy

[Jack Harrison]

Good idea Guy. I might do something similar with Orange Tips to enable the beginner to distinguish between males and females.

Just a thought.

Jack

[NickB]

Guy: That would be a great help to those who struggle, like me....

The real part of any ID course would have to be - field identification classes!
Knowing what to expect, and having seen them in their own environments before, is the best way to finally make that ID!
And even then, it takes those with huge experience, like you, Guy, and RogerG (with apologies to other UKB members I may have left out, such as JKT and PaulK!) to attempt to distinguish between all those blues and skippers and ringlets......without taking them away "to study".....
Learning is always difficult, but it should be (harmless) fun too!
N
PS Jack; more butterfly porn?

[Jack Harrison]

OK, point taken Nick. Perhaps a bit too subtle.

So how about something simpler? How to distinguish between a Red Admiral and a Marbled White for instance. I have always found that the difference in size between the two species isn't very helpful in determining the identification so some other guidance is required.

Jack

[Gibster]

Eye coloration and patterning. It really is the only way forward, chaps.

Guy, your idea of a learning book is a terrific one. Many bird field guides are nowadays starting to veer away from the simple "features/colours/habitat/calls" and are leaning towards more of a 'feel' for the birds via "jizz,/behaviour/confusion species/habits/associations". Used side by side with a traditional ID guide it presents a novice (or expert, for that matter) with a much more subjective approach to an unfamiliar species.

Video footage with selected freeze-framing would work brilliantly too.

Cheers,

Gibster.

[Jack Harrison]

Well of course Gibster, you have already added a vital feature to your moth i/d book, namely the flight season on the colour pages instead of it just being in the text section.

Maybe we could (perhaps a dedicated thread) a guide along the lines that Guy has suggested. Over to you Guy.

Jack

[Gibster]

you have already added a vital feature to your moth i/d book, namely the flight season on the colour pages instead of it just being in the text section.

I see field guides as tools to help me identify what I'm looking at. If I can add my own notations to help that process, then I do. Adding the flight times next to the species on the colour plates (and adding an orange dot if it occurs in my county) seemed an obvious bit of extra info that was lacking. Trust me, I need as many hints and clues as possible!!!

Of course, I added the flight season to the plates several years ago - and now they are considerably inaccurate for many species. (And it seemed like such a good idea at the time)

[NickB]

I await the guides with interest...

Provence is a good place to catch some sub-species:
Marsh Fritillaries - E.a. provincialis -

ssp. E.a. provincialis

ssp. E.a. provincialis

Quite variable though, some in the same sites were closer to type:

ssp. E.a. provincialis - but closer to type.

Spotted Fritillary - M.d. meridionalis -

ssp. M.d. meridionalis

Both these ssp's are much brighter than the type specimens; more orange, almost brick-red in the case of meridionalis, and blacker, rather than brown.

[NickB]

Given the lack of stuff now elsewhere...
A few for the record....
(Edit...with a few corrections from Guy included...)

Baton Blue - male

Baton Blue - male

Black-eyed Blue

Osiris Blue

Small (or Little) Blue

Bath White - pair

Small White - female

Provencal Orange-tip - male (known elsewhere as the Moroccan Orange-tip, but not in France)

Spanish Festoon

N

[Padfield]

I'm glad you're still posting pictures - it's really good looking through them, especially when I'm sitting in class...

Your dappled whites are Bath whites. They're not strongly marked, but the pattern is different. Dappled whites are all blotchy and have a tiger-striped costa:



On the same theme, your southern small white is just a small white, though she is a female!

You're quite right - we used to call those orange tips Moroccan orange tips, Anthocharis belia, but then the species was split and now all the European specimens, whether in France or Spain or wherever, are euphenoides, the Provence orange tip. You've caught the colour perfectly in your picture!

More, more!!

Guy

[NickB]

Thanks Guy - go to the top-of-the-class....

I see v3/4 on the fore-wing has no black marks - Small White not Southern as I posted
Didn't want to disturb the pair to see their ups.....
I will amend all accordingly.
Not sure what I have not posted or has been covered already; I'm getting down to the chaff now !
N

[NickB]

A few more....

Rimplas...on a damp and cloudy day

Weaver's - a bit tatty by the time we found him....

Another male Provencal OT

Nettle-Tree - well-named, almost welded to the Nettle-tree...

Green-underside Blue

(Hope that helps you through the next class, Guy!)

[NickB]

Getting there early in the morning did give us the chance of catching butterflies basking and less hyper-active than just an hour later...

Baton Blue - posing nicely...

Found this skipper doing his "Batman" impression....

"Batman"

[Lee Hurrell]

Brilliant!

'Your bullets cannot harm him - his wings are like a shield of steel!'

PS - lovely photos Nick.

Cheers

Lee