Large Tortoiseshell and Comma

[Jack Harrison]

I have read one or two reports (including one from Neil) of the two clashing (over territory, basking spots).

I wonder whether the rise and rise of the Comma can in any way be linked to the decline and possible (hopefully temporary) extinction of the Large Tortoiseshell? The dates of initial spread of the Comma/decline of LT more-or-less coincide - the late 1940s.

I realise that the larval foodplants are different but could there have been a virus or parasite to which the Comma has better immunity?

Jack

[millerd]

Here are the descriptions from the backs of the relevant Brooke Bond Tea Cards of 1963. Very interesting to compare the two with the sort of account you'd write now, nearly 50 years later. I wish I still had my set...

22 Large Tortoiseshell (Nymphalis polychloros) NYMPHALIDAE
Once fairly common this butterfly is now but rarely found over most of England and Wales. On the wing from late June to September, some hibernate through the winter when they may be discovered in old sheds and barns. The sexes vary little although the female is slightly larger. They will be seen flying strongly and swiftly up and down over the same piece of ground in country lanes or open ground alongside hills. The caterpillar is black with yellow marks and spines and feeds on various trees such as Elm and Sallow. Wingspan approx. 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 inches.

24 Comma (Polygonia c-album) NYMPHALIDAE
A rare butterfly found locally in the south of England, it may be thought at first glance to be a tatty Small Tortoiseshell, but close inspection will reveal one of the most unusual and interesting looking English butterflies. The slightly larger female has flat brown undersides, unlike those of the male which are variegated. When at rest with wings closed on a tree trunk or amongst dead leaves, they are nearly impossible to detect. On the wing from May to September, the Comma hibernates during the winter. Wingspan approx. 1 7/8 - 2 1/8 inches.

Dave

[Mark Lyman]

Hi - I still have my set from boyhood - and added a second at a boot sale last year - you can have it if you ask very nicely!

There are lots of sets on e-bay for just a pound or so

I also remember once seeing a large tort but that is 30 or so years ago. I live near the Isle of Wight so may just have to go over.

Cheers, Mark.

[Liz Goodyear]

The larval foods plants are not disimilar both use elm and sallow. We have found Comma caterpillars on sallow and elm!

Liz

[David M]

Here are the descriptions from the backs of the relevant Brooke Bond Tea Cards of 1963. Very interesting to compare the two with the sort of account you'd write now, nearly 50 years later. I wish I still had my set...

22 Large Tortoiseshell (Nymphalis polychloros) NYMPHALIDAE
Once fairly common this butterfly is now but rarely found over most of England and Wales. On the wing from late June to September, some hibernate through the winter when they may be discovered in old sheds and barns. The sexes vary little although the female is slightly larger. They will be seen flying strongly and swiftly up and down over the same piece of ground in country lanes or open ground alongside hills. The caterpillar is black with yellow marks and spines and feeds on various trees such as Elm and Sallow. Wingspan approx. 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 inches.

24 Comma (Polygonia c-album) NYMPHALIDAE
A rare butterfly found locally in the south of England, it may be thought at first glance to be a tatty Small Tortoiseshell, but close inspection will reveal one of the most unusual and interesting looking English butterflies. The slightly larger female has flat brown undersides, unlike those of the male which are variegated. When at rest with wings closed on a tree trunk or amongst dead leaves, they are nearly impossible to detect. On the wing from May to September, the Comma hibernates during the winter. Wingspan approx. 1 7/8 - 2 1/8 inches.

Dave

That's most interesting. The idea that the Comma was until recently a rather rare butterfly is nowadays scarcely believable. They're both Nymphalids, so why has one prospered and the other vanished to near extinction?

[NickMorgan]

That's most interesting. The idea that the Comma was until recently a rather rare butterfly is nowadays scarcely believable. They're both Nymphalids, so why has one prospered and the other vanished to near extinction?

This is something that has interested me for a while. Orange tips and peacocks were rare visitors to East Lothian prior to the '70s. Commas were rarely recorded here until 2006, when a couple were recorded. All three species are now very common here and now wall browns have moved into East Lothian. I don't think we have lost any species, despite losing so much habitat here. I can't imagine that it is a climatic thing, particularly after two very cold winters, which don't seem to have impacted on these species.

[David M]

That's most interesting. The idea that the Comma was until recently a rather rare butterfly is nowadays scarcely believable. They're both Nymphalids, so why has one prospered and the other vanished to near extinction?

This is something that has interested me for a while. Orange tips and peacocks were rare visitors to East Lothian prior to the '70s. Commas were rarely recorded here until 2006, when a couple were recorded. All three species are now very common here and now wall browns have moved into East Lothian. I don't think we have lost any species, despite losing so much habitat here. I can't imagine that it is a climatic thing, particularly after two very cold winters, which don't seem to have impacted on these species.

A similar thing has happened in the Isle of Man. Twenty years ago there were no Commas but now they're not uncommon. More recently, the Speckled Wood has colonised the island having previously been entirely absent. To my knowledge no species have been lost.