Entomotrip to XXXX

[Piers]

Why is it always this humble bit of equipment that allegedly gives people offence?

Because it is the primary tool used by collectors in the field.

The fact remains Pete that it is somewhat prejudicial to jump to the conclusion that the sight of a net equates to the presence of a butterfly collector. When I see a man with a shot gun I do not jump to the irrational conclusion that they are about to rob a post office.

I see no difference between someone, out of curiosity, inquiring about the use of a net, and someone commenting on a pet dog. The net is irrelevant.

Really? That surprises me Pete. People who comment on a dog are not usually labouring under the assumption that the dog owner harbours some sort of evil or misguided intent.

Felix.

PS. Padfield, I've sent you a PM...

[roundwood123]

Interesting as usual.. As a "Moffer" i shall be wandering around this summer with my net sweeping away in the long grass and shruby areas, its a tool of the trade.
Steve.

[Gruditch]

Interesting as usual.. As a "Moffer" i shall be wandering around this summer with my net sweeping away in the long grass and shruby areas, its a tool of the trade.
Steve.

And what are you netting Steve

Before we get some idiot coming on here shouting his/her mouth off. If someone is leading an organised walk, for which they should obtain permission, then as long as the land owner gave them permission, I see no problem with the walk leader using a net.

Putting aside the moral rights and wrongs of using a net, lets consider the legality of someone using a net.

Because of the lack of prime habitat, ( another subject ), its more likely that anyone using a net, will be doing so on a nature reserve. Regardless of what they are netting, do they have a right to do so, and should I approach them.

Of the reserves in my local area, all the council owed sites forbid the trapping of animals, including with the use of a net. On NT land, no one should knowingly disturb wildlife, on BC land there is no unauthorised use of nets, and on the two most famous reserves, Martin Down, and Bentley Wood the unauthorised use of nets is forbidden.

So in most cases, on my local reserves someone should have to gain permission before using a net, for what ever purpose. So I think it only right that if I see someone using a net, I approach, and enquire what they are doing, and ask who gave them permission. Of the five times I have spoken to persons using nets, only one of them was collecting, but none of them had permission.

Regards Gruditch

[Neil Hulme]

I thought we'd done 'nets' only a few weeks back?
Next one to mention 'nets' has to join their local Glee Club

UKB Glee Club.jpg (58.55 KiB) Viewed 776 times

Neil

[roundwood123]

And what are you netting Steve

Micro Moths, Not all Moths are attracted to light so other tactics are needed to survey a site, i used a xxx in Portugal with the idea of getting better pics of hard to id species and it was a complete disaster, never for Butterflies again.
No idea what a glee club is but please dont make me join

[Gruditch]

Ah, I see, I was just a bit perplexed as to what you meant by "its a tool of the trade".

Regards Gruditch

[Paul Wetton]

Neil

You're beginning to worry me. Fish nets and now The Glee Club.

Folks like us, you know strange types that go looking in the undergrowth shouldn't even know about The Glee Club.

[_astralis]

Just incase anyone else took my post completely the wrong way, i now feel the need to justify my beliefs:

• 1. I do not think everyone who has a net is a collector.
  2. I have nothing against people using a net for identification or research purposes provided: a) they release the subject afterwards without harming it/causing it distress and b) they have specific permission to be using a net at a particular site.
  3. I do not agree with people "collecting" butterflies with nets. It is these people that i would report after enquiring as to what they were doing with their net.
  4. I will always ask someone who has a net what they are doing. But never in an accusing manner.

I have met quite a few people with nets on my travels and not one of them has been a collector. All have been quite happy to explain what they were doing and have never taken offense to me asking. Thankfully, this matter has now been resolved. I will say no more on the subject but will think twice before commenting on a controversial subject in the future.

I have absolutely no idea what a 'Glee Club' is, but it looks like some sort of terrible nightmare.

Go here and find out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymi52UbGEZM. Is it sad that i actually love this show?

Gill

[ChrisC]

is it not so long ago that Reals wood white was discovered in Ireland, i'm pretty sure that was decided from a live specimen... not.

if a new colony of say Large copper suddenly turned up somewhere wouldn't one of the first things to be done be to take samples and test DNA etc.

which is more likely to be accepted scientifically a photo or voucher specimen? Does the Natural History Museum still collect? do we condone them?

Butterfly Conservation wouldn't have the knowledge of the distribution of certain moths without dissection and peoples collections.

I'm not a collector nor a dissector and i too would ask what anyone was doing with a net.. . politely of course collecting has it's place and it's purpose. but for sale or display..... that's a no from me.

GILL please don't let it put you off joining in and aren't you glad Miss Beast is staying

Chris

[David M]

Nets themselves are not a problem. It is the intentions of the user of the net that are.

The original post in this thread refers to "XXXX". What is this? Has it been edited or did the poster himself use it so as to protect the identity of the location?

I cannot seriously believe that anyone would wish to collect butterflies in this country anymore so I'm prone to conclude that this is an international location.

Still, I can't be over-critical because my interest in butterflies was forged in the late 1970s and early 1980s when using a net was de rigeur and I still have my collected specimens in their original case (thankfully, none of them are endangered ones, although there is a Pearl Bordered Fritillary caught in North Wales amongst that collection).

I certainly wouldn't think of condoning such actions now, but if I were doing a proper field study I maintain that using nets still has a role to play regarding certain species (Essex/Small Skipper, Pearl/Small Pearl Bordered Fritillary, Dark Green/High Brown Fritillary, female Blues on a site replete with a large number of species, etc).

Pete, you're dead right to leave this thread in situ. Deleting it amounts to unnecessary censorship and I believe it is better to elicit debate on this subject by allowing it to remain online.

[Pete Eeles]

Hi Gill - superb photos on your Flickr account, BTW!

I'm not going to defend any remarks made in this thread, but would simply like to observe that topics such as this really get emotions running high, as you might have noticed There's no need to explain your posts; most of us will have read between the lines.

Having said that, I also think it's sometimes important to clarify certain remarks for those (typically those with only a passing interest in Lepidoptera) that may be viewing this thread and taking everything at face value. The use of nets is just one example. Otherwise statements implying "anyone with a net is a collector", for example, go unchallenged.

Anyway - I look forward to seeing more of your excellent photos this year!

Cheers,

- Pete

[roundwood123]

Pete has beaten to it and i have agree, great pics Gill.

[Neil Hulme]

Hi Gill,
Thanks for the Glee link. They totally 'smashed' that number . Even Sue Sylvester was tapping her foot .
Neil (Gleek)

[Pete Eeles]

The original post in this thread refers to "XXXX". What is this? Has it been edited or did the poster himself use it so as to protect the identity of the location?

I edited it. It's not in the UK.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Paul]

I'm gobsmacked about the direction this thread has gone in. The only people I know who use a net are Guy, and Dave W of BC and both are done with the highest, the very highest, regard for the insect concerned. In fact I am in no doubt there are several species I would never have seen if it were not for their nets. Hopefully no-one using this site would use a net for any other reason.

I personally would never wield a net again although I am sure I am not alone in admitting I have done many many years ago (sigh!! ). Perhaps that is why I could never do it again. But that is for me, not anyone else to decide.

Anyone using a net for non research collecting, ie killing & setting for money or pleasure, in this day and age is so far away from acceptable they may as well be on a different planet from most of us ( I think). - In same terms as bird's egg collectors. Surely no-one on here can argue with this, although the freedom of an individual to do what he/she likes is not in question. With butterflies it is NOT the freedom, but the desire which is questionable.

A further observation.... In North America a few years ago, I was taken to a "butterfly enthusiast" who proudly showed me rows and rows of dead butterflies.... I squirmed uncomfortably in politely hidden horror for the duration, although his enthusiasm for the subject was not in doubt. Attitudes in this country are significantly different from some other countries it seems, but again, perhaps something of an unfair generalization coloured by personal experience.

[Pete Eeles]

I have to admit that I bought a net last winter with a view to helping me ID various whites, blues and skippers that I see in my garden. And the only reason for doing that, is that I was asked by Upper Thames BC to record species in a relatively-unrecorded area - and my house is slap bang in the middle of it. If my evidence of seeing several species of blues, whites and skippers (I've had Holly Blue, Common Blue, Small White, Large White, Green-veined White, Brimstone, Orange-tip, Small Skipper, Large Skipper, Essex Skipper, Purple Hairstreak in my garden) can help inform the relevant authorities of the diversity present in my local area, and act accordingly, then I think this is a worthwhile cause. Not all of these species have required a net, of course, but it's there just in case! And if anyone were to ask me why I have a net, I'd consider it an opportunity to make them a BC member

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

The original post in this thread refers to "XXXX". What is this? Has it been edited or did the poster himself use it so as to protect the identity of the location?

I edited it. It's not in the UK.

Cheers,

- Pete

Having re-read it, I suppose the "2,700m" rather gave it away.

[Pete Eeles]

Oops! I'll change it to "mm"

Cheers,

- Pete

[_astralis]

GILL please don't let it put you off joining in and aren't you glad Miss Beast is staying

I wont And YES! Coach Beiste is the best I cant wait to see her sing a number!

Hi Gill - superb photos on your Flickr account, BTW!

Thanks, Pete. I have hundreds more to upload but its finding the time!

Having said that, I also think it's sometimes important to clarify certain remarks for those (typically those with only a passing interest in Lepidoptera) that may be viewing this thread and taking everything at face value. The use of nets is just one example. Otherwise statements implying "anyone with a net is a collector", for example, go unchallenged.

I will certainly clarify in the future. But i thought the meaning was clear, considering in the previous sentence i referred to Rik who was clearly a collector.

Pete has beaten to it and i have agree, great pics Gill.

Thank you 2010 was my first year with an SLR and macro lens so i hope to get even better results this year. April/May cant come quick enough!

Thanks for the Glee link. They totally 'smashed' that number . Even Sue Sylvester was tapping her foot

They really did. Have you seen the Superbowl episode? I think its episode 11. Not sure what episode we're up to in the UK but im telling you, The Sue Sylvester Shuffle ep is AMAZING! The incredible mash up of Thriller/Heads Will Roll steals the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsg_9yUWuGw. One of the best so far, i think

Gill

[Piers]

For those who have been following this thread, both through valuable contribution and by voyeuristic spectator-sport, Gillian (_astralis) and I have made our peace, and I have apologised without reserve for my abrasive, aggressive and somewhat bullish approach to her initial post in this this discussion.

Gillian was gracious and honourable in acceptance of my humility and we have parted upon good terms. For those who have yet to do so, I encourage everyone to view her stunning photographs at...

Breath taking pics

Through the likes of Gillian, the future of butterfly conservation (lower-case intended) in this country is in safe hands.

Felix.