Is this an Elm?

[Jack Harrison]

It's a long time since I saw a mature Elm, but I came across this tree today. It reminded me of an Elm from yesteryear. Is it an Elm?

Jack

[Liz Goodyear]

Hi Jack
I would want to see a photo of the flower budding structure - it is very distinctive at the moment as the flowers arn't far off flowering! Eggs today weren't hatched though but the centre is darkening as if it won't be long in some areas

Looks quite good though and yes there are some still existing - whereabouts were you

Liz

[Jack Harrison]

Hertfordshire, between Barkway and Buckland at approx TL371345. I'll wander down the footpath to the tree in the next few days.

This picture shows it in the context of a wide-angle landscape.

Jack

[JohnR]

Elms sucker and your picture looks as if there are shoots coming up from the roots.

[Liz Goodyear]

That area has some massive trees dotted about. At TL374327 there is a small copse full of large elms.

Don't know if you have noticed this but as you drive into Royston on the old road towards the town centre from the east the road is lined with large elms.

There is a layby and in the summer during the flight period - stop there and look up in the gap above the road.

Liz

[Jack Harrison]

Liz told us:

That area has some massive trees dotted about. At TL374327 there is a small copse full of large elms.

Very useful info Liz.
Firstly I walked up to the tree I found yesterday.

Then following your advice, I went to that copse (TL374327) at Wyddial. (How do you pronounce Wyddial?)

In a field nearby is what most certainly is not an Elm. A Cedar I think, perhaps planted by the Wyddial Hall estate?

Didn't get a chance today to try the Royston suggestion. I know where you mean (close to the Meridian Stone) but as I have an arthritic neck looking up at tops of trees is hard work. I need to see hairstreaks when the come down.

Jack

[Liz Goodyear]

Wyddial - um never quite sure how you pronounce it - have a feeling that the a in the dial part gets dropped - it does cause a bit of amusement around these parts so I will leave it to someone else to pronounce it properly!

Pretty bleak around there and not my favourite place for tetrad bashing - went around there with a plastic bag filling it with leaf mines a few years ago so I got to know it quite well
Liz

[Jack Harrison]

Liz observed:

Pretty bleak around there

Indeed it is.

Jack

[A_T]

I'm not sure there are any mature elm trees outside of Brighton.

[Gibster]

I'm not sure there are any mature elm trees outside of Brighton.

There certainly are! I'm guessing you've never been to Portland in Dorset or the Isles of Scilly...lovely, tall elms on DED-free islands. I'm not sure about IOS, but certainly White-letter Hairstreak is apparently absent from Portland with the nearest known colony just north of Weymouth (pers com Martin Cade, warden of Portland Bird Obs) which is a huge pity.

Also quite a few mature 'English' Elms dotted throughout the British landscape. Presumably some are DED resistant? Or DED isn't ubiquitous across our landscape? I think Wych Elm is resistant though, and is the only species of elm known to be indisputably 100% native to Britain.

Cheers,

Gibster.

[Matsukaze]

DED has still not reached northern Scotland, but then again nor has the butterfly.

[Pete Eeles]

DED has still not reached northern Scotland, but then again nor has the butterfly.

Indeed. The most spectacular flowering Wych Elms I've ever seen are in the middle of Edinburgh!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Liz Goodyear]

A trip down to Weymouth for a funeral in 2009 found Wlh at SY663788 - they are present on most elms except Cornwall, parts of Cumbria, bits of mid Wales and Scotland at present
Liz

[Gibster]

they are present on most elms except Cornwall, parts of Cumbria, bits of mid Wales and Scotland at present

"Most elms" - apart from all the ones I've been searching lately in Surrey. I'm beginning to think the eggs don't exist at all...are you UKB lot are all in conspiracy to make me look daft...surely I'd have found at least one bloomin' egg by now????

PS - According to my copy of Butterfly Watching by Paul Whalley, WLH also feed on Lime (page 150) I didn't know that! Any thoughts, Liz?

Gibster.

[Liz Goodyear]

I said most elm not all elm!!!
In Hertfordshire they are on most elms getting very close to all elms

When he says feed does he mean nectar - white-letter love flowering lime to nectar and it is covered in aphid honey dew

I have heard of no one finding eggs on lime but then I have never looked. I have found a purple hairstreak egg on elm though once

Liz

[Jack Harrison]

Unusual larval foodplants.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Monarch larvae in captivity will feed on brassicas. I find that very hard to believe. And didn't we have a discussion a while back about laboratory experiments with Large Whites when they were fed on a totally artificial mix?

Jack

[Liz Goodyear]

Male white-letters do not just restrict their flying activity to around elm trees, they are just as likely to behave territorially around ash, lime, field maple and oak. Also seen flying from prunus and horse chestnut and sycamore...........

A lime tree close to elm is one of the first places we would look if were trying to record adults. The lime is flowering at around the same time the adults are flying.

Liz

[Dave McCormick]

In a field nearby is what most certainly is not an Elm. A Cedar I think, perhaps planted by the Wyddial Hall estate?

Looks possibly like a cedar of Lebanon (if it has pine needle like leaves its most likely it since other cedars have leaves like cypress trees) as they were the tree to have in the 1740's in estates, showed your importance for some reason.

There used to be an entire elm wood here in Co Down, but Dutch elm killed it off, there are some mature wych elms, the only native elm to Ireland which is more resistant to the fungus, Ceratocystis ulmi which is carried by beetles which bore into the trunks. There are many different strains of the fungus, of varying virulence. The wych elm is apparently rather more resistant to the strain which has killed so many of the small-leaved elms in England and Ireland during the epidemic of the past thirty years. Death is caused by the fungus blocking the 'pipes' in the wood that carry water up the trunk. Drought conditions consequently tend to increase the death rate. Mature ones can grow to 120ft tall and can live for up to 500 years or so but I have never seen a mature elm, only a few dead ones.

[Gibster]

Looks possibly like a cedar of Lebanon

Easy way to remember how three impressive cedars look, all to do with the tips I believe - Atlas ascends, Lebanon is level, Deodar droops. The tree in the pic is Cedar of Lebanon, "the essential accessory for a mansion lawn since 1740" according to the latest Collins guide!

When he says feed does he mean nectar - white-letter love flowering lime to nectar and it is covered in aphid honey dew

I have heard of no one finding eggs on lime but then I have never looked. I have found a purple hairstreak egg on elm though once

OK, so this is a full quote from the book: "Life-cycle Eggs laid singly in forks of twigs of Elm and Lime where they spend the winter, hatching following spring after 8 to 9 months. Caterpillars feed on Elm, Lime and other trees; fully grown after 6 weeks. Chrysalids last 26 days." So nope, I don't think he means adults feeding on honeydew! Is the book wrong?

Gibster.

[Jack Harrison]

....Atlas ascends, Lebanon is level, Deodar droops....

Presumably with age, an Atlas first becomes a Lebanon and eventually turns into a Deodar.

Jack