How close? (Help!)

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:11 pm

I have been having a bit of trouble latley with close-up shots. Especially of small moths and eggs. Here is my shot of a 20 plume moth:

Original 20 plume

"relief added"

The relief helps as it "shifts" the pixels in a angle that matches the blur so you get a sort of corrected, non blur, but it adds noise to pic a bit.

Exif:

f/2.8
Exposure = 1/8sec
ISO-400
Max Apeture = 2.971
Exposure Bias = -2step
Focal length 8mm
Metering = Milti Spot
No Flash

Any ideas how to get good close ups? Would really help. My camera can get as far as a 1cm macro shot.

it344x · Post by **it344x** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:47 pm

What is the camera you are using Dave?

Martin
( http://www.mgnastro.org )

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:51 am

If you can attach filters in your camera (either directly or through some add-on part) I would suggest using close-up lenses with the longest focal length your camera has. If you can't use filters, I'm out of ideas.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 09, 2007 8:08 am

I only have a compact

Its a Samsung Digimax L85. Its not that bad really. Can't wait until I have an DSLR. Will be a while yet.It has:

Lens = Schneider f = 7.8 ~ 39mm (35mm film equivalent : 38~190mm)
F no = F2.8 ~ 4.4 (max 7.6)

Focusing:

Normal: 80cm ~ infinity
Macro : 10cm~80cm (Wide), 50cm ~ 80cm (Tele)
Super Macro: 1cm ~10cm(Wide)
Auto Mode : 10cm ~Infinity (Wide), 50cm ~ Infinity (Tele)
Manual Focus: 1cm ~ Infinity(Wide), 50cm ~ Infinity (Tele)

Shutter:

Mechanical and Electronic shutter

Auto : 1 ~ 1/2,000 sec. Manual, S Mode : 15 ~ 1/2,000 sec.
Night : 15 ~ 1/2,000 sec. Fireworks : 4 sec.

Exposure:

Program AE, Shutter Priority AE, Aperture Priority AE or Manual Exposure
Metering : Multi, Spot

±2EV (1/2EV steps)

ISO Speeds:

Auto, 50, 100, 200, 400

White Balance:

Auto, Daylight, Cloudy, Fluorescent_H, Fluorescent_L, Tungsten,
Custom

Still images:

Modes : Auto, Program, A/S, Manual, Wide, Motion capture, Scene,
* Scene : Night, Portrait, Children, Landscape, Close-up, Text
Sunset, Dawn, Backlight, Fireworks, Beach & Snow
Continuous: Single, Continuous, AEB

Hope that can help give me some ideas.

lurkalot · Post by **lurkalot** » Wed May 09, 2007 8:44 am

Dave, (I could be wrong, but) looking at your pics there's some very heavy shadows. It looks like you were blocking out the light whilst leaning over to take the shots. Using a compact at 400 ISO I would think will give you noise problems.

You could try a longer focal length, and then crop. Your camera should be capable of this with the amount of megapixels available. This should also help by not casting shadows on the subject.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 09, 2007 8:47 am

I was leaning over. Since I wanted to get the shot, and my tripod would not work for this, I wated to get close. Could someone tell me what ISO speeds are for and what the f/ numbers are? I am not 100% sure on this one. It was a bit dark when I took shot.

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:03 am

The ISO represents the sensitivity of the sensor (or film, if you're using film). The higher the ISO setting, the higher the sensivity. So in low-light conditions, a higher ISO setting is normally recommended. However, with higher ISO settings, you also get more grain. As ever, it's a balancing act. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed

The f number indicates the size of the aperture. The lower the number, the more open the aperture is. So f2.8 is "wide open". See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number

Cheers,

- Pete

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:21 am

Thanks I understand now. SO the lower the f/ number the better the closer shot and a higher one e.g. f/10 or higherm the more background you get in shot as well as foregound. In closeup shos, my f/2.2 would be best then?

WHat kinda f numbers are on D-SLR cameras and lenses?

Just wnated to know, what the equivilant 8x optical and 18x opticl zooms would be in SLR len sizes?

How good would this be for a compact?: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0701/07012 ... p550uz.asp

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Wed May 09, 2007 10:47 am

Dave McCormick wrote:In closeup shos, my f/2.2 would be best then?

No. The closer you are, the more you need the additional DOF in order to get at least most of the subject sharp. It is not as critical with compact as it is with DSLR, but that is still the way to go.

The common usage in macro shots is to use as small aperture as light permits, but not so small that diffraction begins to soften the image. With DSLR that happens above f/11, but it happens earlier with a compact.

Dave McCormick wrote:WHat kinda f numbers are on D-SLR cameras and lenses?

Usually 2.8 or 4 ... 22 or 32.

Dave McCormick wrote:Just wnated to know, what the equivilant 8x optical and 18x opticl zooms would be in SLR len sizes?

Either bad or big, expensive and mediocre.

The point in DSLR is using the best lens for each situation, so the good lenses usually have a zoom factor under 4.

Dave McCormick wrote:How good would this be for a compact?: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0701/07012 ... p550uz.asp

I can't see whether it has filter threads or not. If you want to photograph small creatures, you need to forget the idiotic macro modes and find a camera that has a long focal length (the one above is fine in that respect) and filter threads. That way you can take the picture much further away and you have a chance of having some light on the subject as well. Even the on-board flashes may work then.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:02 am

Suppose thats true for macro and that camera. I don't want another camera until I have enough for a DSLR and have real control and different lens sized so I can be far enought away and get that "quality" shot wihout disturbing subject and so on.

On the DSLR, whats would be a good one for butterfly/moth photography? What cameras do you guys use? I am thinking of upgrading in a couple of moths or so.

eccles · Post by **eccles** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:32 pm

forget the idiotic macro modes and find a camera that has a long focal length (the one above is fine in that respect) and filter threads.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. I have a Canon S3 and use a Canon 500D close-up lens with it. I shoot from between 12" and 20" away and can resolve the individual lenses in the compound eyes on a darter dragonfly. I'm under no illusion about it beating a good dSLR macro lens combo, especially in poor light where sensor noise can be an issue, but in good light it still produces very nice A4 photos and is a fraction of the weight and price of a dSLR. Check out my orange tip photo in the May competition for an example.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:31 am

I was looking and working with f/numbers and would this be right:

F/number = the smaller it is e.g. 2.2, the less sharp the outside areas will be and more the center of the image would be stronger.

I used a f/2.2 and 1/2000 exposure and a -2 AV and sunlight white balance on a GV white (see it on may compo, near top somewhere). The sun was directly behind me at time. it seemed hard to get a sharp pic, but managed to get one.

Would using a f/7.7 with 1/2000 exposure and an av +3 make things darker?

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:21 pm

There is something here that I don't get. Your possible exposure numbers are ISO sensitivity, exposure time and aperture. That AV value has no meaning after those unless you are shooting in RAW and that AV is exposure correction afterwards.

With aperture f/2.2 your DOF is pretty thin in close-ups, so I'm not surprised you had problems. F/7 is better in that respect, but requires more light - or results in darker picture. If you were shooting at 1/2000s you have plenty of margin there to increase exposure.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:27 pm

Foud out that a higher F setting is better when close-up. Tested today and saw better results.

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:43 pm

Test also whether (sp?) it is feasible to use the smallest possible aperture (big number) or should you stay a bit below that. Diffraction can make the whole picture soft at the minimum aperture.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:40 pm

I have a close-up of a moth here, could someone ID too? It was taken today:

f/3.4
1/2000sec
ISO-400
AV -2
Metering = Multi Spot

this image took a while to post, well here you go. I have narrowed this moth down to these few: http://www.ukmoths.org.uk/thumbnail.php ... =Crambinae now could someone tell me, UI am not 100% sure.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:46 pm

OK, here is what I want to do, but am unable as I am not that great. I want to photo micro moths basically.

How well can a compact like mine fair to a D SLR in these situations? The hardest part for me is getting the moth in focus and getting it right as LCD screen is not the best to look through.

Any advice, I'd like to go and try again at this tomorrw. Basically, I want all moth in focus, right light and so on, so you see full moth and less grain. Would using a lower ISO like ISO-50 help this?

Please help. i can get good photos of large butterflies, moths, but not tiny creatures well.

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:16 pm

You don't ask much, do you?

The smaller the subject is, the more difficult is the focus issue. The only thing on your side is the fact that you have more DOF with a compact. Unfortunately, the low resolution viewfinder with delay more than compensates for that. A dead subject with tripod might be doable, but a live one... Just take plenty of pictures - one might hit.

Getting good light on a subject that size is difficult enough with a DSLR, let alone a compact in "macro mode", but we've been through that. If you have a hot shoe, something might be rigged with an external flash. Even that is difficult to arrange so that the light would reach the top of the subject.

I want to expand to the same direction you are talking about and I figured it would require MP-E 65 and maybe the twin flash or at least some creative bracket system. For someone who does not need to go for less than 10 mm wide subject and extension tube, 2X teleconverter and a normal macro lens might do.

A compact camera is not without compromises and you've run into one of them.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:42 pm

Sorry for asking so much. Thought this was a compromise I'd have to make. Have to wait til mid next year for a D SLR way I am going. Oh well, I can do my best any case. Thanks anyway. I Id'd that moth so nevermind.