Small White or GV white?

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:22 pm

I have this pic here (in May 2007 competition). Is it a small white or a green veined white? I saw both in area I took pic:

Since I last looked, i am not entirley sure. Presume its a small white. is it a male or female?

Many thnaks if anyone could help

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:43 pm

Hi Dave,

This is a Small White. Very similar to the photo at:

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/image.ph ... Aug-05.jpg

If I had to "vote" I'd say "female" since you can just about make out 2 dots on the forewings

Cheers,

- Pete

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:44 pm

Looked at that and thought so. Thanks. Could you tell me the differences between a GV white and small white besides green veins?

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:59 pm

The shape of the dark spot at the tip of the frontwing. Also, P. napi usually has a couple of small dots below that at the outer edge of the wing. P. rapae never has them. If you meant the underside, I'm out of ideas.

Post by **Padfield** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:19 pm

Did you consider the possibility of large white, Dave? Obviously, you saw it in the flesh so maybe you can rule that out, but that is what it looks most like to me. The very dark, round spots on the upf showing through, and the apparent continuation of these along the inner margin, together with the shape of the apical mark, influence me. In addition, the apical venation looks more like large white.

Guy

Post by **Padfield** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:31 pm

I just had a look at the similar image Pete referred you to. That is definitely a small white and clearly shows the small fork at the end of vein 7. This is occasionally absent, or very small indeed, but the general venation of your butterfly looks very different (I only know about the fork because it is a useful distinguishing feature from southern small white, which flies here in Switzerland).

For GVW and SW in the summer brood, when the veins are less dark on GVW, look for the way the apical dark mark breaks up into little triangles down the outer margin in GVW. That's quite a good binocular feature when you only see the butterfly from a distance, too.

Guy

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:29 pm

Thanks. Reading Butterflies of Europe by Tristan Lafranchis, I saw that too. Did not notice that (cannot really) in this pic. Thanks again.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:46 pm

I have created this, does it help? I created this for my website and wrote this:

The Green veined white is usually easy enough to ID. Look for the green veins on underside to ID. But if your not close enough, it may look like a small white. We have created this identification image to help you. Note: Bottom image of small white does not show the forked vein which is on the top vein beside the edge of the top wing on underside.

A Green Veined White usually has more prominent vein markings than Small White but apart from this, they do look very similar. They both fly in similar locations from each other, both eat similar foodplants and are both 25mm in size. They both have very similar uppersides and both species, having same size and number of spots on upperside of wings in each sex, but small whites spots and darker markings (not veins) are more prominent. The Green Veined White, rarely is a pest of cultivated crucifers.

Post by **Padfield** » Tue May 08, 2007 5:23 am

Looks fine, Dave. I would still call that a large white, not a small white, though!

Guy

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Tue May 08, 2007 5:57 am

padfield wrote:Looks fine, Dave. I would still call that a large white, not a small white, though!

That was my initial impression as well, but I was not sure, so I did not comment.

Thanks for the tip on P. mannii! I was not aware of that.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:54 am

I will check out all pics I got of butterflies in area and get back to you on this. Might be a large white. Is there any way to tell from a photo? I have a video I could upload if that helps. I saw this pic on Guys site:

Looks like the butterfly in my pic.

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:18 am

Sorry, but it does not quite look like the one in your picture. The spot in the wing tip (whatever it is called) is hazier and of different shape.

Dave McCormick · Post by **Dave McCormick** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:22 am

I thought that. I can just rename that to a Large White, than a small white. From what I saw, it looked a bit larger than a small white.

Whats the difference (besides size) of a large and small white?

Post by **Pete Eeles** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:19 am

Take a look here:

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/species_ ... e=Pieridae

In the Large White, the black marking at the apex tends to run vertically down the wing. In a Small White it is more horizontal.

Cheers,

- Pete