Secrecy or not?

Discussion forum for anything that doesn't fit elsewhere!
JohnR
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:16 pm
Location: S.W. Surrey

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by JohnR »

Gibster wrote:Were the species in question birds rather than butterflies, the usual course of action would be to contact what is known as The Rare Breeding Birds Panel (RBBP).
Gibster (a keen birder).
How unfortunate that their initial letters are so similar to another bird organisation whose views, IMHO, do more damage to wildlife than they do good.

John
Piers
Posts: 1076
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:21 pm

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Piers »

Hi John,

That's an interesting comment; would you care to elaborate upon your views and what has drawn you to this conclusion?

Having read comments on other websites as well as more lengthy missives in one or two publications I know that you are not alone in your sentiment.

Felix.
dave brown
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by dave brown »

Sticking my head above the parapet for the second time this week. Reading back through the thread I believe Jack raises a very interesting question. Are there still butterfly collectors about? I have only been into butterflies for about 10 years, but I have never knowingly seen a collector. I have seen very few people with nets and jars and those were catching other small insects. Thats not to say collectors don't exist, but that aspect of the hobby would appear to be very outdated. People have thankfully moved on, especially since the arrival of digital photography, which the younger generation in particular seemed to have embaced.
So Jack, as you yourself mention, is that an issue these days? Enjoy the meal with your friend.
JohnR
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:16 pm
Location: S.W. Surrey

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by JohnR »

Felix wrote:Hi John,

That's an interesting comment; would you care to elaborate upon your views and what has drawn you to this conclusion?

Having read comments on other websites as well as more lengthy missives in one or two publications I know that you are not alone in your sentiment.

Felix.
Half a century ago I was a member of the then fledgling Young Ornithologists Club. I attended a couple of residential courses at their new headquarters at Sandy. I had ringed enough birds on migration through Dungeness to qualify for my ringing licence. I watched corvids die in agony from mercury seed dressings, I sent the carcasses to the RSPB who were instrumental in getting a ban on the substance. I then joined the army, saw the world and developed an interest in birds without feathers. Later, when I settled back into the countryside I found that the RSPB had changed from being a charity run for the benefit of wild birds and its members to one of political dogma, an avowed hatred of all country sports, a belief that all gamekeepers are criminals. A promoter of the global warming theory and a charity for whom the word pragmatic does not exist.

I could go on about the mismanagement of moorland that the RSPB owns, where there is more wildlife on neighbouring managed grouse moors, because the RSPB will not control predation, nor burn the heather. I can mention the Society's almost rabid promotion of raptors over all other wildlife and farming. I do not condone the shooting or poisoning of any raptor but in certain areas the numbers of red kites and buzzards are causing problems. Over the last few days I have been keeping an eye on a buzzard that has been spending too much time in a oak tree overlooking my chicken run. Bunny huggers will tell you that buzzards only eat carrion - wrong - I have watched them eat and then kill pheasant poults and having developed a taste for them they will continue to attack the birds as they mature.

What frightens me most about the RSPB is its meddling in legislative matters for they are behind a number of amendments to the Scottish Wildlife & Natural Environment Bill. They would like every shooting estate north of the border to apply for a licence, which could be revoked if a dead raptor were found on their land (have you seen a 100 year old Sparrow Hawk?), what's more they would like the land owner to be vicariously liable for such a dead bird, especially if he is an absentee landlord. The RSPB are supporting attempts by the SSPCA to have their inspectors' powers increased so that they can police "wildlife crime" rather like the increased powers that the RSPCA have wangled in England. Now there is another organisation I despise, if for no more reason than on two occasions when I reported cruelty cases to them they have done nothing - no investigation, no relief for the animals.

One of the reasons I like butterfly conservation people is that they are mostly pragmatic about wildlife. They accept that with encouragement and a little advice shooting estates and farming can help butterflies. On the shoot that borders my garden there is the last of 50 kilos of millet growing amongst the maize for the flocks of finches that it is supporting through the snow, the sainfoin, pharsalia and annual wildflower seed has already been ordered for next year's butterflies, this will be sown on the headlands of the fields of game cover.

When charities are small they can serve both the interest of their purpose and that of their members; when they expand to over half a million members they become corporations with the member's subscriptions feeding the management's greed for power. So for the New Year let's work to keep Butterfly Conservation small, healthy and wealthy.

John
User avatar
Jack Harrison
Posts: 4635
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:55 pm
Location: Nairn, Highland
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Jack Harrison »

I have received an e-mail from The Hon.Sir Charles Fortesque-Barrington-Rothschild KGB, NBG * (to be more accurate, it came from his Personal Private Secretary Ms Robyn Byrd) about the relict colony of Chequered Slippers (sic) on his land.

Sir Charles has been kept informed about this web forum and the relevant discussions. Apparently, he has not seen any Chequered Skippers for the past two years so had thought that the butterfly might have died out.
Ms.Byrd discretely points out in her e-mail that Sir Charles is not only hard of hearing but his eyesight has been failing rapidly over the past five years so this might account for him not having seen the butterfly.
I have asked Ms.Byrd to advise Sir Charles that a lack of sighting for two consecutive years is hardly grounds for assuming extinction.

Sir Charles still maintains an active interest in his estate but at his age*, it is understandable that he has not really embraced the internet. The fact that the details of discussion on this web forum about Chequered Skippers has been passed on to him is a clear indication of the commitment of his staff. Sir Charles has let it be known that the help of butterfly enthusiasts is welcome. I have given the name of that well known butterfly breeder, Martyn Black from Workhouse. No doubt Black will hear from Byrd.

Clarification about the location of the Fortesque-Barrington-Rothschild estate is in order. The estate is in fact in Rutland but the post code is LE, Leicester. This suggests that the estate is in is in the county of Leicestershire. THIS IS INCORRECT. The post code system routinely throws up anomalies such as this and can cause immense confusion particularly when accessing public services such as the NHS.

*Debunk’s Peerage shows that Sir Charles was born on 1st April 1920

Jack
Gibster
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:06 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Gibster »

:roll:
Raising £10,000 for Butterfly Conservation by WALKING 1200 miles from Land's End to John O'Groats!!!
See http://www.justgiving.com/epicbutterflywalk or look up Epic Butterfly Walk on Facebook.
User avatar
Zonda
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: South Dorset

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Zonda »

My goodness Jack, you do cut around in some fashionable circles. Was he the one that turned up at the Boxing day drag hunt in women's clothes? :wink:
Cheers,,, Zonda.
User avatar
Jack Harrison
Posts: 4635
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:55 pm
Location: Nairn, Highland
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Jack Harrison »

I have been sorting through archived photos and came across this:
Image

It was taken a few years ago in The Hon.Sir Charles Fortesque-Barrington-Rothschild's largest tract of woodland and the Purple Emperor seemed unerringly attracted to Sir Charles's hand.
Maybe Neil and Matthew don't need belachin or shito or any of the disgusting baits mentioned in the recent TV program - an aristocratic appendage might have the appropriate odour.

Jack
Susie
Posts: 3618
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:34 pm

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Susie »

It must be my blue blood his Majesty is attracted to then!!
his maj.jpg
his majesty 2.jpg
User avatar
NickB
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:30 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by NickB »

..surely sheer animal magnetism, Susie :P
"Conservation starts in small places, close to home..."
User avatar
Paul Wetton
Posts: 780
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:07 am
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Paul Wetton »

Go on Michael get the picture out to show that his majesty likes commoners as well. :lol:
Cheers Paul
_____________________________________________________________________________
http://www.wildlife-films.com http://www.ibirdz.co.uk
millerd
Posts: 7090
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Heathrow

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by millerd »

I probably don't need to offer prizes for guessing who the owner of this well-turned ankle is, a veritable magnet for the beasties...

Dave
Attachments
PE on leg.jpg
User avatar
Vince Massimo
Administrator & Stock Contributor
Administrator & Stock Contributor
Posts: 1855
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:36 pm
Location: Crawley, Sussex

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Vince Massimo »

I recognise those famous boots and moleskin trousers!
First Emperor of the year (1st July 2010)
First Emperor of the year (1st July 2010)
Vince
User avatar
Jack Harrison
Posts: 4635
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:55 pm
Location: Nairn, Highland
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Jack Harrison »

Before feeding on Sir Charles's hand, that PE had been "enjoying" an even more unpleasant feast (Dog, not fox - thank you Matthew for pointing out the difference while we were in Fermyn one morning).

Jack
User avatar
NickB
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:30 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by NickB »

Gibster wrote:.... Happily I found the 'sacrificial clearings' (which really have been stomped to hell!!!), enjoyed the butterfly at close quarters and quit the site with no extra damage being caused.
Gibster.
Glad you managed to see it.
Don't worry about the clearings too much; the warden said it probably saved him the job of going in to strim it later. Each year they go in and lay-down some old blackthorn trees to promote re-growth and create clearings which would rapidly be overgrown without extreme management. (It is amazing how quick blackthorn does grow - within 3 years a 10m clearing can be gone). The local BC volunteers are very pleased that their work has proved successful and increased the chances of people seeing this butterfly.

Had they decided it was "too disruptive" for people to visit and kept it "secret"......
N
I tend to be of the opinion that if butterflies are to be kept from the public to "protect" the butterflies from the public, there is little point in undertaking such projects. If they are unavailable to the general public, they might as well not be there......
"Conservation starts in small places, close to home..."
Susie
Posts: 3618
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:34 pm

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Susie »

swf.jpg
Yum yum, stinky trousers!


I can be very attractive to a certain type of male, Nick. The winged variety :lol:
User avatar
Gruditch
Moderator & Stock Contributor
Moderator & Stock Contributor
Posts: 1689
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:30 pm
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Gruditch »

NickB wrote:I tend to be of the opinion that if butterflies are to be kept from the public to "protect" the butterflies from the public, there is little point in undertaking such projects. If they are unavailable to the general public, they might as well not be there......
True.....ish

But there are cases where regrettably full public disclosure would be detrimental to the survival of individual fragile colony. You only have to visit Nore Hill in August, or Bentley Wood in July to see how popular butterflying is in this part of the world. Full disclosure of sites, and especially the live reports, of species like Duke of Burgundy, Marsh and Glanville Frit, will and does attract a lot of visitors. Obviously 25 people looking up at a Brown Hairstreak, or observing a Purple Emperor, will do no damage or inhibit the butterfly from going about his/her daily business. But 25 people in a confined clearing all trying to get a Marsh Frit, or Duke of Burgundy fix, are potentially going to damage the habitat, and disrupt the colony.

They don't just exist for the likes of you and I to go and look at them Nick. :!:


Regards Gruditch
User avatar
Jack Harrison
Posts: 4635
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:55 pm
Location: Nairn, Highland
Contact:

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by Jack Harrison »

Gruditch made some good points and I will add my pennyworth.

There seems to be a measure of agreement that collecting of “voucher” specimens is not really the major issue any more, although there have been examples of commercial collecting. These commercial collectors are less likely to be able to operate if a site is NOT secret as they will fear being seen by bona fide enthusiasts. I have had no qualms challenging someone wielding a net and never felt that I was in any danger when making a polite enquiry. In every instance when I have come across a net, the explanation given to me has been perfectly plausible; as readers on this group will know, I am not taken in easily (famous last words!)

However, collecting by camera might sometimes be a problem if habitats are damaged by trampling; our love for butterflies might indirectly cause harm to them or to other aspects of the habitat. Trampling can never be ideal but were for example a habitat is managed by use of cattle, human feet are unlikely to do a great deal of harm. And as Nick pointed out (Black Hairstreak localities), trampling is not necessarily particularly harmful where it might be thought to present a major concern. Mis-management is far more likely to be a problem. I am reminded of the situation in Whitecross Green Wood. Straying from the path was verboten. I and everyone else obeyed the order which left those splendid Brown Hairstreaks tantalizingly out of range. So what happened the following year? Someone unwittingly or deliberately, allowed the verges to be trimmed to resemble a “Number 1 haircut” (I learnt about the haircut grading system when my sons were teenagers).

Secrecy might be counter-productive for another reason. A fragile habitat could be lost if the finder keeps it to himself. Perhaps there is a compromise position.

Let’s go back to my original mythical example of Sir Charles and his Chequered Skippers. Sir Charles’s estate is private so we can’t romp willy-nilly over his land. But instead of simply announcing that a colony of Chequered Skippers has been found “somewhere in Rutland”, might it not be better to pin it down somewhat and say “found on private land approximately 10 kilometres to the south of Uppingham”? Now who could resist searching the non-private land in that area in hope of finding another colony? The search could even bring positive results. More eyes brings more benefits and make a far better contribution to the survival of the species than simply knowing it exists “somewhere” but frustratingly being unable to do very little about it.

Jack
User avatar
NickB
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:30 am
Location: Cambridge

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by NickB »

Gruditch wrote: They don't just exist for the likes of you and I to go and look at them Nick. :!:
Regards Gruditch
Indeed - but on a metaphysical level, they don't exist, if no one sees them :mrgreen:

And if they are an introduction, they do, in a way, exist simply because (potentially) you or I has put them there; presumably because we want to see them , as well the chance of seeing them prosper and expand so that others can see them too.
N
"Conservation starts in small places, close to home..."
User avatar
David M
Posts: 17795
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:17 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Secrecy or not?

Post by David M »

Jack Harrison wrote:
There seems to be a measure of agreement that collecting of “voucher” specimens is not really the major issue any more, although there have been examples of commercial collecting. These commercial collectors are less likely to be able to operate if a site is NOT secret as they will fear being seen by bona fide enthusiasts.
That's an excellent point, Jack. I doubt if anyone would dare risk being seen with a net in a prime Duke of Burgundy/Purple Emperor/Black/Brown Hairstreak site.
Post Reply

Return to “General”