How times change - or Aphrodite lost!

[Matsukaze]

I find the idea of a British List rather odd - particularly an official British List, which I don't think exists for butterflies, and even more particularly one which is divided into fine upstanding species resident here since who-knows-when (plus some that get blown over in persistent westerlies) and devious unscrupulous things that stow away in the wheel wells of aircraft. Surely the list of species resident here at any given time is the list of ones actually breeding here?

[Jack Harrison]

Officially, the Glanville Fritillary doesn't 'exist' on mainland Britain

I had thought it was generally accepted that the colony at Hurst Castle had arrived naturally from the Isle of Wight. I have never seen the butterflies actually coming in off the sea but certainly one day I was there, a steady breeze was blowing (and I would expect sea breezes to be a regular feature) coming straight from the island, a mere 1200 metres away at its nearest point. That colony might not be permanent as habitat and microclimate are rather different from the Isle of Wight undercliffs, but my understanding is that it has survived for around ten years, doubtless being "topped up" on a regular basis.

Jack

[Gibster]

I find the idea of a British List rather odd - particularly an official British List

Hi Matsukaze 松風

British folk are just queer, I guess!

Incidentally, who are the 'officials' when it comes to butterflies? Does everyone follow and agree with Emmet? Do BC see themselves as the dons of the butterflies? Or somebody else entirely? Just curious really. In my birding world there are lots of factions competing for overall authority, from the venerable BOU through to Lee Evans with his UK400 Club's taxonomy.

Cheers,

Gibster.

[David M]

I've always found it curious how vertebrates/invertebrates with wings can be classified as belonging to a particular area/nation.

How does one enforce passport control?

[Matsukaze]

By committee, I think.

[Lee Hurrell]

In my opinion, Emmet & Heath have listed all the species ever recorded in the UK, regardless of residency, extinction, migration, introduction, re-introduction etc but at the time of publication or some other linear sand line. The work is now out of date with regard to the Great Spangled Fritillary of course.

By following the same logic, Marbled Fritillary should be included on any list and I would imagine would be if the book is ever republished.

Cheers

Lee

[Pete Eeles]

The last deliberate introduction ever recognised was the Map butterfly in 1932. All others are considered accidental and most, to be frank, are "one offs", and are simply "interesting":

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/reports_history.php

This issue I have with the Marbled Fritillary introduction (aside from the fact that the deliberate introduction is breaking the law - specifically, the Wildlife and Countryside Act) is that:

a) We know it is a deliberate introduction.
b) There is no evidence that it is breeding naturally.
c) I can't see it as being relevant to anything - perhaps an example of supreme stupidity at best, and damaging at worst.

End of rant.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Matsukaze]

Hi Lee,

The trouble with that line of reasoning is that I could release a non-native species in my back garden, "record" it, and earn it a place on the list.

[Mark Senior]

I am sorry to disagree with Pete Eeles on this topic .
There is a perverse logic in saying that an introduction such as the Marbled Fritillary is bad , but it may be ok if the offspring had arrived in the country via larva arriving in a load of timber or bedding plants or it would be fine if they were the offspring of butterflies deposited here by a freak tornado .
i have no doubt that Pete is quite happy with the reintroduction of the Large Blue and would not say that it was wrong to have done so and that we should have waited until it naturally recolonised the UK from the continent .
There are a number of animal species that are now recognised as resident UK species that would not be here if man had not taken it into his own hands to do so , the rabbit and edible dormouse are just two examples .
If and it is so far unproven , the Marbled Fritillary establishes a self sustaining breeding colony then it would become a UK species , but , no doubt there would be some purists chasing around trying to exterminate them .

[Pete Eeles]

I am sorry to disagree with Pete Eeles on this topic .

So what is it that you're disagreeing with?

Cheers,

- Pete

[Lee Hurrell]

Hi Lee,

The trouble with that line of reasoning is that I could release a non-native species in my back garden, "record" it, and earn it a place on the list.

Hi Matsukaze,

Agreed that doesn't quite work does it, but is it much different from say, Albin's Hampstead Eye being described as British simply becase the collector may have mis-filed it in his collection?

Pete - Fair point about the known deliberate introduction of the Map vs the accidental introductions of other species. However if proof of the Marbled Fritillary breeding could be obtained, as opposed to stock being topped up each year, (this could be likely as the foodplant is Bramble I think) then I would see no difference in the status between that species and the Map.

I'm not condoning it of course, I appreciate the legal, ecological and moral wrongs being committed with introducing non-native species.

PS - What about Glanville Frit at Sand Point as an deliberate introduction?

Cheers

Lee

[Pete Eeles]

Pete - Fair point about the known deliberate introduction of the Map vs the accidental introductions of other species.

Yes, the Map introduction is exactly the same as the Marbled Fritillary introduction.

It's more a case of drawing the line somewhere when attempting to put any list together. In my mind, recent and deliberate introductions of non-native species (and which are confined to one site with no evidence of naturally breeding) cross that line

Aside from the list, my issue is the irresponsibility of deliberately introducing a non-native species for obvious reasons. I'd also be concerned with the introduction of non-native subspecies (except when the native subspecies has become extinct, such as the Large Blue).

In short - I think it would be much better to conserve what we have!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Jack Harrison]

I was trying to find out information but no response so far:

Lindrick Common has its extraordinary range of introduced species. Chambers Farm Wood is another where apparently DNA testing of the Marsh Fritillaries shows that they aren’t even British stock.

I am not necessarily against introductions but it is essential that we know how, when and why.

Jack

[Pete Eeles]

If and it is so far unproven , the Marbled Fritillary establishes a self sustaining breeding colony then it would become a UK species.

I'm not sure what criteria would make sense - but were it to colonise a region (i.e. not be confined to a single site) then I'd agree it would warrant a mention as a secondary species!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Jack Harrison]

I see in the Queen of Spain description on ukb, no mention is made of the short-lived colony at Minsmere in the 1990s. I would have thought this resulted from genuine immigration from the established dune colonies of the coast of the Netherlands.

We were hopeful then and again for the Sussex breeding in 2009. But there seems to be something about England that the QoS just doesn’t like. Memories of 1588 perhaps?

Jack

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Jack - I'll add it to my (very long) list of things to do over the winter

Cheers,

- Pete

[Jack Harrison]

Sorry Pete - I was quite forgetting that it will YOU who gets put to the extra work!

Jack

[millerd]

I see in the Queen of Spain description on ukb, no mention is made of the short-lived colony at Minsmere in the 1990s. I would have thought this resulted from genuine immigration from the established dune colonies of the coast of the Netherlands.

We were hopeful then and again for the Sussex breeding in 2009. But there seems to be something about England that the QoS just doesn’t like. Memories of 1588 perhaps?

Jack

On the face of it, conditions in the south of the UK do not appear inimical to this species. However, I would guess that for the Q of S to persist, one or two isolated incursions of small numbers will never be enough. There would have to be enough of them to establish a breeding population, and that would probably require a build up of numbers on the adjacent continental coast, appropriate winds, and the right foodplants available on arrival in several localities. Red Admirals (for example) persist because lots of them flow into the UK every year - and the debate still goes on about whether they actually have a true resident breeding population. I imagine if Red Admiral immigration dwindled to the level of that of the Q of S, it might to all intents and purposes disappear.

I don't know if this is a reasonable comparison or not; the evidence that both species can survive the winter at a variety of stages of their life cycle would suggest it might be.

Just a thought...

Dave

[Jack Harrison]

Dave might well have hit the nail on the head. A tiny immigration would imply that the incipient colony rapidly becomes in-bred so will likely die out. The same would apply to small scale human interventions. For example, there has been some puzzlement as to why the Heath Fritillaries in Thrift Wood Essex aren’t doing very well. The reasons seem pretty obvious: the genetic diversity is too small and failure in the longer term is virtually inevitable. Translocations between the Essex colonies to improve the diversity would certainly be worth a try.

I am no biologist so am probably talking out of my a*se. But I would confidently anticipate that artificial introductions would have a much greater long-term success rate if new stock (from the wild) were to periodically be introduced over the first few years. Then once the genetic pool is sufficiently diverse, the colony only ought to stand a much better chance of surviving.

Compare the successful introductions of Red Kite and White-tailed Eagle - they were achieved over a number of years

Jack

[Padfield]

The Climatic Risk Atlas of European Butterflies, which you can download for free from http://pensoftonline.net/biorisk/index. ... /1/showToc models the climatic niche of all European butterflies. The British Isles currently fall entirely outside the modelled niche for QoS, though it is difficult to interpret which aspects of the British climate are responsible. The actual distribution of QoS extends beyond the modelled niche, but this is not surprising for a migratory species that can maintain a presence outside regions suitable for permanent residence by constant topping up. The Channel colonies of mainland Europe are in many cases outside the modelled niche. Southern Britain seems to be one sea crossing too far for sustainability outside the niche.

I would love to know which factors compel the authors to leave Britain and N.W. France out of the niche. All of their future projections include (parts of) southern England in the niche of QoS but these parts of the book are necessarily speculative, as opposed to the current niche descriptions, which are based on empirical data and observations of the butterfly (though they still might be inaccurate, of course).

Guy

EDIT - I've just attempted to correlate the modelled niche in the 4D climatic niche diagrams with the data given at the beginning of the book (that's when printed books are much better - bit of a pain doing that on the computer!), taking East Anglia as my target region (because they so nearly made it there) and the most obvious feature is that the annual temperature range is too low. Both the lowest and highest annual temperature range quartiles are given as unsuitable for the species, and Britain as a whole is in the lowest quartile. Our climate is too temperate for QoS...