Hungary - ID Help

[markhows]

Any help with these seen last week in Hungary appreciated

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8209127@N0 ... 832282543/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8209127@N0 ... 832282543/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8209127@N0 ... 832282543/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8209127@N0 ... 832282543/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8209127@N0 ... 832282543/

Thanks

Mark

[Ian Pratt]

There are 2 large coppers and probably a weaver's fritillary. The blues are a litle more tricky.

[Pete Eeles]

I think we need Padders, once he's come down off his mountain! I'd say:

Short-tailed Blue
Weaver's Fritillary
Scarce Copper
Scarce Copper
Not sure - possibly Brown Argus

Cheers,

- Pete

[Ian Pratt]

According to Richard Lewington the flame-orange of the male with a black spot ...on each forewing is daignostic for the large copper. The scarce copper lacks the black spots.

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Ian - I stand corrected!

[Padfield]

My school server wouldn't let me go onto Flickr so I spent much of the day wondering what these wonderful piccies were! Now I'm home for a few minutes...

Scarce copper can have the black spot, though it is usually fainter than this when present. I have seen it well marked on occasion in Spain, though it is usually absent there. The hindwing of scarce copper is always scalloped near the anal angle, unlike that of large copper - at least, unlike the French populations of large copper that I have visited. Yours is seems to be scalloped, almost showing a tail kink. It would be worth checking out other pictures of the two species to see if this happens in large coppers too.

The last one is surely Plebejus sp. - most probably idas.

I'm expected up the mountain again now, so will have a closer look at these later, after others have had a chance to give their ideas too.

Guy

[traplican]

I hesitate if the first butterfly is worn Short-tailed Blue or Eastern Short-tailed Blue...

Short-tailed Blue has 1-3 distinct orange spots near the spur. Eastern and Provençal Short-tailed Blues may have one tiny lacklustre yellow spot near the spur (but the female on this picture has even two ones).

[Padfield]

That picture shows alcetas (Provençal STB), not decoloratus (Eastern STB). Alcetas often shows some orange there, but it is crescent-saped around the black spot, not filling an area. This is the most orange alcetas I have found:



The orange in argiades (STB) is usually more rounded, even when there is very little present or the butterfly is worn:



The female decoloratus is here:

http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxonimage/id97 ... onid=51431

I wouldn't swear to argiades, but I'd definitely lean very strongly that way.

Guy

[Ian Pratt]

The hindwing of scarce copper is always scalloped near the anal angle, unlike that of large copper -

Guy

Having had a colonoscopy this morning (nothing untoward found) my consultant would know all about anal angles!

[Padfield]

It's good to have a colonoscopy. It gives you the benefit of hindsight.

Guy

[Piers]

Blimey Ian, I had the pleasure of one of those once, "steady on Doctor, this isn't a social call...".

Felix.

[Padfield]

Coming back to the copper that led us into this proctological backwater, I've studied the pictures of both species in the Guide to the Butterflies of the Palearctic Region, Lycaenidae, Part 1, Lycaeninae. While this confirms that scarce copper may have a black bar in the forewing (when present, usually a thin black bar rather than a spot, I think) it also confirms that large copper may have a slight kink in the hindwing!

Obviously, the merest hint of an underside would be conclusive, but on the whole I'm inclined to believe the large copper theory. The pictures suggest more of a large copper habitat too (is that some kind of mint?). Did you see the underside, Mark?

Guy

[markhows]

Thanks to everyone for the help and very interesting ID discussion I am learning a lot.

Sorry did not see the underside of the coppers they were quite brief views.

As for the blue we did see some confirmed eastern short tailed blues in the area as well as short tailed blue.

Thanks

Mark