Using nets in Spain

[Padfield]

Despite being an unapologetic net user (and I support anybody's freedom to use a net responsibly, where it is beneficial), I'm glad there is a generally anti-net culture in the UK. It is part and parcel of an increasing respect for other creatures, which involves watching and admiring but not catching and possessing. I would gladly throw away my net in the interests of promoting such a society, if it were necessary. I'm happy there are Gruditches around, prepared to challenge people they think are not showing respect, even if it means they sometimes pick the wrong target and end up in a conflict situation (Gruditch, conflict? Never). This is far better than on parts of the continent, where people see you with a net, assume you're collecting, and don't care.

The important thing is for people like me, Lee and David, when we do get a net out, to explain what we are doing and why. Lee leads groups. That is a perfect occasion to talk about net use, and I'm sure he does. I make a point of explaining to passers-by in Switzerland that I am a photographer, not a collector. And because my big net usually stays in the backpack I don't constantly send out the 'net' signal. The ideal situation is not a society of laws and permits but understanding and respect. We need laws and permits when these break down.

Felix's point about moth traps is well made, and I would repeat my comment about cameras. The idea that net=bad and camera=good is clearly false. To chase an insect for half an hour just to get a good picture represents a far greater interference in its brief life than a net does, and it potentially damages the habitat too. I have a strict, self-imposed, 'three strikes and it's out' rule. If a butterfly eludes my lens three times, I let it be. The exception used to be for significant or rare species, where a photo was important, but now I simply net those and get the proof shot in a pill box, so I still don't need to chase them.

Guy

[Piers]

An interesting angle Guy.

I guess another point worth mentioning is that there are very few butterfly collectors in Britain now, and the majority of those that are left have exceeded a certain age and are not particularly active. That said, there are one or two individuals for whom the natural world is just there to be plundered for selfish personal gain and perhaps a meagre bit of cash.

However, it is very unlikely that you would see these people using a net. It would draw significant and unwanted attention. You do not need a net to collect butterflies if you know what you are doing.

If you see someone in the field (in Britain anyway) using a net it is very unlikely that they will be butterfly collecting. Worth bearing in mind before launching a verbal tirade; as has happened to me on more than one occasion when legitimately studying much smaller insects than butterflies. Luckily I am a pretty placid chap. One one occasion some geezer approached me out of the blue with such a foul tongue in his head I was tempted to tear it out of his face with my bare hands; especially as my girl friend was with me at the time. Some people are just so rude!

I absolutely agree with Gruditch's points as well, regarding the same fritillary being netted a dozen times a day if everyone used a net. But I don't think that everyone would. Few people would have legitimate reason to; and the only reason that I can think of to net a fritillary in Bentley would be as part of an organised mark-and-recapture should one take place.

There are very good reasons to net insects at other sites though, as well as using malaise traps, pitfall traps, moth traps, vacuum samplers etc etc. Only by knowing what occurs at a site in Britain these days do we have any hope of conserving it or preventing it from being developed upon. This is of particular importance on brownfield sites (such as the Thames Estuary). This is an example of where the net becomes an important scientific instrument used for the greater good of both us and the environment.

I would just add that it is important not to demonise nets on the one hand and ignore other apparatus that can also be a threat to lepidoptera populations when used indiscriminately and irresponsibly. Gruditch mentions the possibility of a fritillary being captured and recaptured many times over, and the same can occur when a moth trap is used continually at the same site night after night (perhaps unwittingly by different individuals) seriously impeding the chance of the insect feeding/mating/egglaying.

Felix.

[Gruditch]

I absolutely agree with Gruditch's points as well, regarding the same fritillary being netted a dozen times a day if everyone used a net. But I don't think that everyone would. Few people would have legitimate reason to; and the only reason that I can think of to net a fritillary in Bentley would be as part of an organised mark-and-recapture should one take place.

I totally agree, and I think that really should be the case for all the well known sites that I visit locally, there are all very well monitored already.

Regards Gruditch

[lee3764]

I absolutely agree with Gruditch's points as well, regarding the same fritillary being netted a dozen times a day if everyone used a net. But I don't think that everyone would. Few people would have legitimate reason to; and the only reason that I can think of to net a fritillary in Bentley would be as part of an organised mark-and-recapture should one take place.

I totally agree, and I think that really should be the case for all the well known sites that I visit locally, there are all very well monitored already.

Regards Gruditch

I have been to Bentley Wood 4 times over the last 15 years (4 hours drive from where I live in Cornwall!) and have not taken a net into the wood as I had been informed that it was a 'no nets allowed' area. I did of course respect that and enjoyed the selection of butterflies that I saw and photographed, of which some are not found in Cornwall (ie: Purple Emperor & White Admiral)! I have never in 39 years of enjoying my hobby witnessed a dozen people with nets each netting the same fritillary for whatever reason nor would I wish to! How some non net users think net users do this I don't know! Some may automatically assume we murder 100's of Butterflies each season just because we carry a net! We & I most certainly do not!Most of the British Isles are not nature reserves and isn't monitored for butterflies regularly nor transects undertaken weekly and there is no national law and nor should there be preventing anyone from carrying a net if they so wish to for netting whatever insect order they wish to see at close quarters or wish to study (unless that insect is protected under section 5 of the 1981 Wildlife & Countryside act ie: Large Blue, Swallowtail, Black-Veined Moth etc. of course). A blanket ban on the use of nets would be daft and draconian (and wouldn't work) even in this 'Big brother is watching you' and PC country! I know a good number of people who are over 55 who gained their interest when they were a child usually from direct contact with the Butterflies and Moths by netting them (and most still have a net that they use if the need arises). I bet that not one colony of Butterflies or Moths was harmed by this! I note Felix had someone who came up to him and used foul & abusive language towards him for carrying a net! This is disgraceful behaviour from the revolting person who thought he would give Felix what for or short change for carrying 'The Net'! I'm damn sure that Felix contributes a lot more to the knowledge and understanding of these creatures than the lowlife that picked on him on that occasion! That is a quite extreme example I'm sure but anyhow, this goes to show how unnecessary this all is just because someone is carrying 'The Net'. My original posting tells how I caught (and subsequently released) a beautiful Pyralid Moth on Saturday 19th June & a few more people now know of this moth thanks to me carrying a net (Watkins and Doncaster Professional Kite Net).
Cornwall is a big place for 3 or 4 dozen enthusiasts to maybe use their nets a handful of times each in their own locality over a season to enjoy their hobby! Funny isn't it that in our County where we encourage the SENSIBLE use of nets to further enhance the study of all Lepidoptera that for Butterflies anyway we still have 6 different Fritillary species throughout Cornwall and also nationally rare species such as S.S.Blue with populations possibly exceeding 1 million adults over the whole flight period at the locality we were at on Saturday for our branch field trip. SENSIBLE use of nets where you are allowed does no harm here in Cornwall! Several good friends who never use nets are absolutely fine with us who do use nets. I would not advise anyone to remonstrate with someone who carrys a net for their own safety! I'm sure us net users are more pleasant than the idiot who had a pop at Felix but it is still not advisable in my mind. I also think our overstretched Police Forces can do without 100's (or 1000's) of BC members phoning every year to grass on someone carrying a net by phoning through their vehicle registration numbers through to the relevant police authorities! This has gone too far already with the demonising of nets and their owners! What next? Lets all trawl the nations rivers and lakes and have a pop at every fisherman with a keep net? Every child with a crab net at the seaside? Yes...It is daft!
As I said before; Lets not divide but unite and all enjoy our Butterflies and Moths and tackle the real issues as to why most species are declining!
Lee. (Cornwall).

[David M]

I know a good number of people who are over 55 who gained their interest when they were a child usually from direct contact with the Butterflies and Moths by netting them.

That's exactly how I developed an interest for butterflies (and I'm only 42). First with a fishing net with a bamboo-cane handle then, once I got more serious, with a Watkins & Doncaster butterfly net (nice to hear they're still going).

Of course, cameras back in the late 70s/early 80s weren't the zillion pixel wonders of technology they are now. Unless you shelled out a week's wages, back then it was a 110 or a 126 with no zoom then a 28 day wait for the out of focus images to come back from Truprint.

I have no skills as a photographer, and all the pictures I take are with a middle of the range digital camera (the images are pretty good if you use the close-up facility but you have to get close to the butterfly to get the best out of it). I don't feel the need to carry a net with me now, but if I were in an area where there were species with similarities to others, then it'd be nice to have it as an option without being accosted by others.

[lee3764]

I know a good number of people who are over 55 who gained their interest when they were a child usually from direct contact with the Butterflies and Moths by netting them.

That's exactly how I developed an interest for butterflies (and I'm only 42). First with a fishing net with a bamboo-cane handle then, once I got more serious, with a Watkins & Doncaster butterfly net (nice to hear they're still going).

Of course, cameras back in the late 70s/early 80s weren't the zillion pixel wonders of technology they are now. Unless you shelled out a week's wages, back then it was a 110 or a 126 with no zoom then a 28 day wait for the out of focus images to come back from Truprint.

I have no skills as a photographer, and all the pictures I take are with a middle of the range digital camera (the images are pretty good if you use the close-up facility but you have to get close to the butterfly to get the best out of it). I don't feel the need to carry a net with me now, but if I were in an area where there were species with similarities to others, then it'd be nice to have it as an option without being accosted by others.

Thanks for your comments David. Not everyone even nowadays can afford to have best part of £1000 hanging round their neck when they go out into the field (ie:Canon 450D or similar & accessories and Tamron 90D Macro lens for example) just to get extra close up views! I think you were trying to discover the Brown Argus in your vicinity David? Well wait until 3rd week July & then start looking in your likely habitat or wherever you thought it used to be found. Do take a net if it is not on a nature reserve & net for final 100% confirmation. You CAN get female Common Blues and Brown Argus confused in the field especially if you only have less than a handful and it is a hot day so you may only get one or two chances at most to hopefully net one for checking that it is a 2nd brood Brown Argus. 1st brood is all but over now but usually flies from the last few days of April (in a early year) until mid June (in a late year) and the 2nd brood flies from end of 2nd week of July until end of August or just edging into the 1st few days of September. We have also had the odd few years in Cornwall after 2002 with a very small 3rd brood brood flying in the 1st 2 weeks of October!!! Still, this is not the norm so look in 2nd half of July in Wales and I wish you luck! Brown Argus had their boom years nationally from 1999 onwards for 7 or 8 years but have not had good years after about 2006 even here in Cornwall with a lot less seen. I believe this is partly due to the poor Summers of 2007, 2008 & 2009. Fingers crossed for 2010 which so far is pretty good here in Cornwall.
Cheers & good luck,
Lee (Cornwall).

[David M]

Thanks for the comments, Lee. We can't all be experts (I'm just an enthusiast) and I certainly don't think I could identify a Brown Argus by flight pattern alone. Oddly enough, being from Lancashire, I'm more familiar with the Northern Brown Argus, but of course the forewing spots are a dead giveaway with this species. I'll probably take a trip to the Gower peninsula in mid-July as I believe that's a good spot for them.

As for your remarks about photography equipment, I couldn't agree more. I'd like to be able to 'snap' fluttering Hairstreaks from 20 feet below the tree canopy but I'm not prepared to pay a grand for the privilege. My £99 digital does the job 90% of the time as you can see from the image I snapped on Sunday of a very skittish Marbled White.

[Gruditch]

the demonising of nets

I'm not demonising nets Lee, I agree they have a very important use. I think your find in my original statement, I sad If its part of an organised scientific study, with the land owners permission, then great. I would also have no issue, if the leader of an organised BC event, were to use a net. But I still think however, that the general, and independent use of a net, just to satisfy one curiosity is selfish, and unnecessary.

I would not advise anyone to remonstrate with someone who carrys a net for their own safety!

If someone is using a net, on a no net reserve, then I'm afraid I would feel an obligation to approach them.

I have been to Bentley Wood 4 times over the last 15 years (4 hours drive from where I live in Cornwall!) and have not taken a net into the wood as I had been informed that it was a 'no nets allowed' area.

One must wonder why places like Bentley Wood, and Martin Down have a not net policy.

Regards Gruditch

[Dave McCormick]

If someone is using a net, on a no net reserve, then I'm afraid I would feel an obligation to approach them.

Honetly, so would I, my first guess would be that they were a collector

I myself have no problem with nets, I use them at times, BUT only if its for catching something to photograph, ID and release it, not catch, kill nd pin it, I for one hope these days would be gone. I won't name names, but I was surprised to learn that someone I have known for a while collects butterflies from France and pins them! Wasn't too happy about that myself.

[Piers]

If someone is using a net, on a no net reserve, then I'm afraid I would feel an obligation to approach them.

Honetly, so would I, my first guess would be that they were a collector

Why Dave..???

In all honesty that's probably the least likely reason that someone would be using a net of any description..!! Unless you actually see someone collecting (in which case you probably wouldn't see a net) be nice!

The use of a net does not automatically mean butterfly collector. It's like saying that if you see a man at an airport with a camera then the most likely reason is that they are a spy..!

Felix.

[NickB]

... It's like saying that if you see a man at an airport with a camera then the most likely reason is that they are a spy..!
Felix.

Don't give them any ideas please! It is bad enough taking pictures in the street these days - "sensitive" building managers use the prevention of terrorism legislation to try to stop people taking pictures that may have their building in it!
I missed this thread as it developed.....and I remain ambiguous. I assume that those using nets are doing so for some valid reason - population or other studies - rather than any other reason. ID in the UK is usually OK if you can get a good look/record shot, so I don't see the reason for routine netting to distinguish say brown argus from others; so what if there are some confusions, is it THAT important to know?
On the other hand, in Europe with so many more potential and similar speciies, I hear what Guy is saying in terms of less damage compared to chasing a butterfly for a picture and that it does no harm if properly done. I think that is the key.....improperly done it could damage specimens, the last thing anyone would want...
N

[Dave McCormick]

In all honesty that's probably the least likely reason that someone would be using a net of any description..!! Unless you actually see someone collecting (in which case you probably wouldn't see a net) be nice!

The use of a net does not automatically mean butterfly collector. It's like saying that if you see a man at an airport with a camera then the most likely reason is that they are a spy..!

Well, if it was someone on their own I might think that way, on a reserve I mean, with a few people with them I might be less inclined to think so. I know it doesn't automatically mean collector if you have a net on a reserve, I did a few weeks back, but I was with about 15 others, and two from BC, but if someone was on their own netting things on a reserve, wouldn't you want to know?

[Piers]

but if someone was on their own netting things on a reserve, wouldn't you want to know?

I think that I would probably assume that they were carry out some research. My default position is not to assume that 'net on reserve = bad person without permission'. Permission to use a net is easy to obtain; you just ask. And in the New Forest it's just a 'rubber stamp job'.

I would almost certainly engage them in conversation out of interest, but not confront them and automatically assume that they were up to no good. If they looked really busy I would probably just mind my own business.

Maybe I am just naive, but there are more (far more) people out there who study insects as part of their work, serious hobby, education/studies, than there are people who 'collect butterflies'.

Felix.

[Gruditch]

I've only encountered a handful of people with nets, none of whom turned out to be collecting, but as it turned out, none had permission to be using their nets either. One of those using a net was on Martin Down, he put up a bit of a protest when the warden asked him to put the net away, and left with it in two pieces. Another group turned out to be a RSPCB field trip, who knew very little about butterflies, and wrongly thought that netting was a everyday practise.

Although seeing someone with a net can set of the alarm bells, and although we have let are self's drift of down that avenue, I don't think collecting is really the issue here. Its whether it is appropriate to be using a net for general butterfly ID purposes in the UK, I don't think it is. And if someone like Dave M thinks that an area/population needs extra study, then they should go though the right channels to organise it, not just,

Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone

Regards Gruditch

[David M]

if someone like Dave M thinks that an area/population needs extra study, then they should go though the right channels to organise it, not just,

Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone

I'm afraid you've failed to understand what I posted. I never proclaimed any area needed extra study (though any study at all is surely better than none) and to insinuate that I feel one should just 'use a net and don't be bullied by anyone' shows a extraordinary level of presumption.

I'm not an expert, merely an enthusiast (isn't that how we all started out?)

You see, if you demonise enthusiasts then you risk losing potential future experts.That was the essence of my remarks. How much of what we now know has come from information obtained by people using nets (and collectors as well)?

I could be pedantic and say that collecting the earlier stages of butterflies constituted more of a risk than those netting adults. After all, poor handling and incorrect husbandry could easily lead to losses, but no-one seems to be too concerned about that. It's as if the current zeitgeist is 'take what you like by way of egg, larva or pupa, but get caught netting an imago and you will be considered a pariah).

To make my position clear (I believe what I've already posted on this matter is fairly comprehensive), collecting butterflies in the 21st Century is no longer necessary thanks to quantum advances in photography and no-one should be allowed to do it. However, capturing adults occasionally in nets for closer observation should not be considered a heinous offence so long as it's not done needlessly.

Some people on here have an enviable expertise regarding butterflies (and they have my utmost respect). They don't need to use a net because they've already seen everything that Britain (and, probably, most of Europe) can throw at them. Sadly, I have not. I'm knowledgeable from a layman's point of view but my knowledge would be rudimentary in comparison to some on here. The ability to identify a Brown Argus in a field full of Common Blues from twenty paces is something that only comes from hard hours spent in the field. Unfortunately, having spent all but the last two years of my life in North West England, I'm largely unfamiliar with any butterfly that is South-centric. Thankfully, having moved to South Wales, I'm now in a position where I can go out and find species new to me and observe them for the first time.

Those who have little patience or respect for people in my position would do well to bear this in mind - you were like that once.

[Gruditch]

and to insinuate that I feel one should just 'use a net and don't be bullied by anyone' shows a extraordinary level of presumption.

I was quoting someone else Dave

Regards Gruditch

[Padfield]

It's as if the current zeitgeist is 'take what you like by way of egg, larva or pupa, but get caught netting an imago and you will be considered a pariah).

I think I'm right in saying that most people in these forums would strongly discourage taking any early stages out of the wild unless there is an extremely good reason and the taker is fully equipped to rear the butterflies properly. I certainly take that position, and if you've followed any of my early stages posts this year (three species of hairstreak, plus purple emperor) you will notice I have left every single one where it was, even when it was potentially in a vulnerable site.

I don't demonise nets, but like Gruditch I do consider them almost always redundant in the UK. I for one learnt all my ID skills without a net and can honestly say I've identified every butterfly I've seen in the UK since I was about 10 years old (I started when I was seven). Nets are cumbersome, rather crude substitutes for field skills and a good pair of binoculars. If I were teaching a youngster how to identify butterflies I would do it the same way I would with birds - I would teach observation, fieldcraft, flight habits, foodplants, habitats and so forth. I don't even think photographs are a good way of learning ID skills. Essex skipper and small skipper, for example, are easy in the field. They are relatively sedentary butterflies that can be separated very quickly if you know what you're looking for, and yet when people post photos of them in these forums we often find the view is not quite right and we um and ahh about them. Common blues and brown arguses are even clearer - they simply don't look anything like each other in the flesh.

I don't think anyone is saying nets are evil in themselves, or that proper net use is inherently bad. It's just not an approach to the hobby that most of us would encourage as 'good practice'. There are plenty of other things that are equally not good practice, and these don't always get the censure they deserve (beating for larvae, for example).

Luckily, I don't expect net-carrying to become widespread among butterfly-watchers in the UK, if only because nets are such pains to carry around and normally don't serve any useful purpose. But if it did become fashionable I would certainly join forces with Gruditch in discouraging it as gently and kindly as I could, without dashing the enthusiasm of any budding experts!

Guy

[David M]

and to insinuate that I feel one should just 'use a net and don't be bullied by anyone' shows a extraordinary level of presumption.

I was quoting someone else Dave

Regards Gruditch

Dave M is me though?

[Gruditch]

Yes, but it was what someone else advised you to do. I would of put up the " Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone " with the proper quotes, Lee3764 wrote, but the flippin programme won't let you go that far back in a thread.

Regards Gruditch

[David M]

I for one learnt all my ID skills without a net and can honestly say I've identified every butterfly I've seen in the UK since I was about 10 years old (I started when I was seven).

I learned the same ID skills, but only in relation to those species present in my area (which was no more than 20 at best). Even today I could identify a Wall Brown from a significant distance because I grew up surrounded by them, but I'd be unable to do the same with a Ringlet, simply because there weren't any 'Up North' and I haven't seen many since.

What's interesting is that this thread is about using nets in a foreign country. How many of you who are au fait with the full complement of British species would feel as comfortable identifying butterflies you'd never seen before on the continent? Well, the point I'm trying to make is that many Southern English species remain as foreign to me as those continental ones would be to you. It'd be great if they were all like Marsh Fritillaries and settle practically on demand, but often (too often) they're terrier like explosions of energy that whizz past you leaving you curious to see them at closer quarters.