Swallowtail butterflies

[vawn]

I was wondering where this species can be found in this country and how well the population is, are they thriving or rare?

[millerd]

The Norfolk Broads, and now is the time to see them. There are several good sites, but I am no expert and other folk with more knowledge can point you at good spots. I have seen them once myself at Hickling Broad. Others may also be able to provide information about the population stability.

Dave

[Jack Harrison]

See my diary entry:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4056&start=40#p33223
about last weekend's visit.

Dr.Martin George allows free access to his garden at Strumpshaw Fen just east of Norwich; you are certain to see Swallowtails here (weather permitting)
Parking at Strumpshaw is: TG340067 Walk down track to Martin’s garden at: TG339070

Feed these map references into, for example, Streetmap:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/
Swallowtails occur over much of the Norfolk Broads area but if you have never seen them in Britain, go to Strumpshaw – that is quite the easiest place to see them.

Good luck, but bear in mind that they don’t fly in cold cloudy weather.

Jack

[Ian Pratt]

Just returned from the Norfolk Broads after a week's stay and saw swallowtails on 3 out of 4 visits to BC's Catfield Fen reserve. Photographed them on Tuesday 15 June and had most enjoyable chat with the local reed cutter- pure Norfolk accent- delightful!!

[Jack Harrison]

Ian wrote:

...chat with the local reed cutter- pure Norfolk accent- delightful!!

As a native of Norfolk myself, I do have to correct you Ian.
Not “delightful”. It’s “Boo’ifull”

Jack

[Ian Pratt]

I should have known better!

[vawn]

cool so are the Norfolk broads hilly or flat? I take it they won't particularly like coastal or wooded areas then?

[millerd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Broads

This will tell you more about the Broads - they are a relatively flat area, the Broads themselves are actually areas of water.

Dave

[vawn]

k cool so flat lands with plenty of watery areas, this being the typical habitat preferred by swallow tails, so, in theory, they would thrive in any area with similar qualities? eg if a population was introduced to somewhere in the south that is flat and watery, they wouldn't all just die straight away.
did their population used to be greater, I mean have they declined over the years?

[Piers]

so, in theory, they would thrive in any area with similar qualities?

And a whole stack of the larval food plant; Peucedanum palustre also known as (amongst other things) Hog's Fennel.

Why do you ask Vawn? Planning an introduction somewhere?

Felix.

[vawn]

so, in theory, they would thrive in any area with similar qualities?

And a whole stack of the larval food plant; Peucedanum palustre also known as (amongst other things) Hog's Fennel.

Why do you ask Vawn? Planning an introduction somewhere?

Felix.

funny you should ask

well I am into herpatology so I keep quite a few exotic erm stuff
atm I have a spare flexarium (big square fabric net/mesh enclosure with plants in) and mature catterpillars are $1 each. I wouldn't mind bringing some on but I don't know if it would be a good idea to let them loose. There are plenty of wet areas here and the climate is a little warmer than most of Britain but I am in a coastal area which can be prone to strong winds and then of course there's the local ecology. I wouldn't get more than 3 if I did go for it but I'm not really sure it's the right thing to do.
I don't think it would be right to bring them on and then keep them indoors in the flexarium, they should be out in the sun flying around n all but then in the enclosure they would be safe and I could maintain a suitable food source for them.

[Dave McCormick]

Hi vawn,

you should be aware that is illegal under the 1981 wildlife and countryside act to release non native species as with people releasing species such as European Map Butterfly and it failing to establish itself or the failed attempts to release Large Copper at Woodwalton Fen and it also failing due to land drainage nearby.

There is many factors that govern releasing species:

1) If the caterpillars/pupae/eggs were got at a site in the UK, I'd suggest adults from that be released back there, if the habitat can still sustain them.

2) If people just release things, Butterfly Conservation won't know if these are true immigrants, releases or a species establishing itself somewhere else naturally.

3) Captive bred insects generally tend to be generically weaker than natural ones as they are not subject to the same or similar conditions as wild ones such as being preyed upon, weather, foodplants and other factors.

4) Releasing non native stock into an area with native species of the same species as your captive bred ones can alter the genetics of the wild species and we could lose a subspecies because of this. Example would be releasing the European Swallowtail adults in an area with British (britannica) subspecies ones and then they could interbreed and produce a species that isn't either and we may lose the britannica one.

Even in small areas this could make an impact as I was moth trapping early this year and noticed in four sites in the same 10km square, there were 4 distinct genetically different colonies of chestnut moth (one colony had small adults and another they were generally larger than average, some in another colony had more males than females) I must have recorded 200+ chestnut moths this year by studying the four areas, and learned a lot. Same with doing this with hebrew character, one area had tiny males compared to another area that had normal sized males.

If you do have too many of these and wonder what to do with them in pupae stage you could send them to WWB: www.wwb.co.uk, I was in contact with them before about surplus stock I got from them once that overbred and I got 50 French Speckled Woods and sent pupae back to them as they said it was ok, just contact them first to see if its ok.

[vawn]

thankyou for clarifying that for me
those are all the issues that concerned me and they really would be very non native
i dont fancy keeping any captive permanently so i dont think i will do it tbh
thanks again