Using nets in Spain

[Pete Eeles]

Hi all,

I'm off to Spain next week with a group of friends to get my annual fix! Does anyone know what the legal situation is with regard to the use of nets in the country?

Many thanks.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

There might be local by-laws to protect particular species, but most people in Spain expect a butterfly-watcher to wield a net. I always take one with me and though I rarely use it, it does come out occasionally, particularly for Pyrgus, Erebia, or Mellicta. If there's any law against them, I don't think it's applied!

Although I understand why some people hate nets, they are in my opinion far less invasive than cameras as ID tools! I net a difficult species, identify it in the hand, perhaps getting a critical record shot and then release it, all in under a minute. No chasing, no trampling vegetation, no lying on the ground crushing everything to get that underside shot. For critical species the net is an essential tool for establishing distribution - no missed records or doubts after the event.

I don't think it stresses the insects. Many like the plastic boxes I use so much as sunning spots they refuse to leave!


(Euchloe simplonia)

Guy

[Matsukaze]

Illegal without a permit, apparently - see the bottom of http://www.bc-eig.org.uk/spain.htm.

[Padfield]

I'm amazed. I've been breaking the law! But I've never met a lepster in the Spanish Pyrenees who didn't use a net and I stand by the view that nets do less damage than cameras.

I'd better get myself a permit.

Guy

[Pete Eeles]

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

I wonder if this is true en España?

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

I suppose one can't differentiate between collectors and those who are merely trapping butterflies to positively identify them.

I defy anyone, no matter how knowledgeable, to walk through chalk downland and be able to automatically identify every butterfly that their footsteps disturb.

Personally, I'd like to use a net but refrain from doing so due to me recognising that it may be considered unethical by others (i.e. I worry that anyone observing me might think I'm trapping them for spurious reasons).

Butterflies aren't higher order vertebrates, they're insects and as such the stress they experience at being temporarily imprisoned isn't likely to raise their heart rate to the point where they are at risk of premature death (as might be the case with birds). What's more, if we're to collectively pull together in accurately identifying various species' UK distribution patterns, then sometimes positive identification is a necessity.

The Brown Argus is rare in Wales and I intend to put in some time trying to locate it this summer. That said, unless a dutiful specimen settles close to me and allows me to observe it at close quarters then I won't know for sure whether it isn't a female Common Blue with a particular lack of blue colouring.

Plenty to recommend the odd excursion with a net, but hey, we live in 'enlightened' times and heaven forbid that we persist in old fashioned behaviour that could be misconstrued as being environmentally unfriendly.

[lee3764]

Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone who thinks you are on a mass murder campaign!
We were very successful in Cornwall since the early 1990's in separating Pearl-Bordered Frits from Small Pearl-Bordered Frits & most of us use nets for this in our branch of Butterfly Conservation Cornwall ranch. You need to be certain with these species & I hope you are successful.
Cheers,
Lee. (Cornwall).

[Gruditch]

If its part of an organised scientific study, with the land owners permission, then great, but otherwise there is no need, in this country for using a net for ID purposes, especially if its just to satisfy ones curiosity.

I would not advise just going out and using a net, most reserves have a ban on nets, and do not take kindly to finding someone using one.

It is illegal to collect on National Trust & Forestry Commission land, and any SSSI. That just about, ( locally anyway ), accounts for every reserve. If dozens of people who can't tell their Blues apart, were to be running around with nets, then the poor Wardens/Rangers wouldn't know if someone is collecting or not. Therefore its safer to have a blanket ban on netting.

Just about every reserve I've ever visited, already runs one or more Butterfly monitoring schemes, plus you have many visitors sending in their reported sightings to the BC, So we don't need Jo Public and his nets. And if I find Jo Public turning up net in hand where I do my transect, they will get short-change from me.


Kind Regards Gruditch

[Padfield]

I agree with Gruditch that in the UK it is almost always inappropriate to use a net. Apart from anything else, very few British species pose real identification problems.

There are relatively few occasions when a net is necessary on the continent, too, but those occasions do present themselves. I am thinking primarily of volatile species in difficult genera on fragile habitat. Chasing them in the hope they will sit still long enough for close examination is way more invasive than simply picking one up, identifying it, photographing it and releasing it.

I carry two nets when I go out. One is a full-size, professional net, that I keep in the backpack most of the time. The other is a smaller, sprung net, that fits in the pocket when folded. It is harder to use a small net like that, but with practice you don't miss much. It is neat, discreet, and doesn't suggest to the world that you're a collector. Perhaps that's the best thing to take to Spain, Pete!

Guy

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks for the thoughts! I don't use a net myself - but my colleagues use them for ID purposes and, without which, our tally would be nothing like the number we eventually reach. More importantly, the information is valuable and is always passed on to the relevant authority once we've sorted the IDs out.

RIght - off to the airport now (flying in the morning). I might get a chance to post updates while in Spain but, if not, you know why!

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

Thanks for the thoughts! I don't use a net myself - but my colleagues use them for ID purposes and, without which, our tally would be nothing like the number we eventually reach. More importantly, the information is valuable and is always passed on to the relevant authority once we've sorted the IDs out.

Yes, there are times when positive identification is needed to reflect the numbers present.

There aren't too many British species that are so similar they would pose problems, but Essex/Small Skipper and Pearl/Small Pearl BFs would certainly be ones that could be mistaken unless the observer could get in quite close.

I'm pretty sure I'd know a Brown Argus if I saw one at close quarters, but unfortunately I haven't seen one since the 1980s and as such wouldn't recognise it by flight pattern alone. If I saw them week in week out, however, I'm sure that would change.

[Matsukaze]

Volatile species? Are these ones that might punch you in the face if you do not net them first?

I'm quite glad we don't have any of those in this country.

[Piers]

Volatile species? Are these ones that might punch you in the face if you do not net them first?

I assumed they were the species that quickly evaporate at normal temperatures and pressures, hence the need to swiftly net and identify them before they just disappear.

Sorry Guy, I just can't help myself...

[Padfield]

Evaporating and irascible, honestly!

Volatile - from Latin volatilis, meaning 'fleeting', 'transitory', 'flying', from volare, to fly. So I meant they flew off quickly, as you well knew!

In Middle English, 'volatiles' were any creatures that could fly.

Guy

[lee3764]

If its part of an organised scientific study, with the land owners permission, then great, but otherwise there is no need, in this country for using a net for ID purposes, especially if its just to satisfy ones curiosity.

I would not advise just going out and using a net, most reserves have a ban on nets, and do not take kindly to finding someone using one.

It is illegal to collect on National Trust & Forestry Commission land, and any SSSI. That just about, ( locally anyway ), accounts for every reserve. If dozens of people who can't tell their Blues apart, were to be running around with nets, then the poor Wardens/Rangers wouldn't know if someone is collecting or not. Therefore its safer to have a blanket ban on netting.

Just about every reserve I've ever visited, already runs one or more Butterfly monitoring schemes, plus you have many visitors sending in their reported sightings to the BC, So we don't need Jo Public and his nets. And if I find Jo Public turning up net in hand where I do my transect, they will get short-change from me.


Kind Regards Gruditch

Mmmmmmmmm..........Sorry, but they (Jo Public) will get short change from you?? Do you own these insects? Sensible use of the net is NOT showing disregard for butterflies or moths and having just returned from a Cornwall Butterfly Conservation field meeting to Penhale Sands in North Cornwall this afternoon (19th June) which I organised, several of us had nets (including me) much to the delight of everyone and I netted a very flighty day flying moth called 'pyrausta cingulata' which is very local indeed in Cornwall and placed it into a pill box to then show all 15 people attending who thought it was very pretty (many had never seen it before!). No-one complained that it was caught by a net! No-one was running around using the nets either. Why is there a hate for 'The Net'? There is no way that pyralid moth would have been seen & looked at at close quarters by anyone had I not used my Watkins and Doncaster net to net it. It was released unharmed after a few minutes to fly off at great speed towards the very sand dune where I netted it unharmed and what is the problem with that? If someone undertaking a transect (which does happen at Penhale Sands) came up and gave us short change then they would have showed themselves up in front of 15 people who were enjoying a mid-summer ramble across Britain's highest sand dunes. A lady undertaking a transect there at our 2009 field meeting did indeed come up to us and was extremely pleasant and certainly did not give us short change and she then joined us for the rest of the afternoon's meeting. She did afterwards attend several more of our friendly & informative meetings. You are welcome to read our field meeting list on our branch website and attend one of our meetings and you will see that we don't trash every butterfly at every locality that we visit with nets. I have arranged our field meetings for Cornwall Butterfly Conservation since it's launch in 1993 and always welcomed nets on our meetings and have yet to hear one single objection nor have a single person give us short change!!! Cornwall & Hampshire seem worlds apart with views on the sensible use of nets!
We did incidentally net several Silver-studded blues today as with a few worn brown argus and common blues still around we wanted to be sure that amongst the 100's of SS Blues the few questionable butterflies were correctly identified. No damage & no deaths to any of the butterflies or moths. Job done & all 15 attendees very appreciative & happy. I think we do this correctly but obviously Hampshire have a 'zero tolorance' on nets. Sad, but hopefully Cornwall doesn't go the same way one day. We are a friendly bunch in Cornwall & sensible use of nets by those who wish to use them is encouraged & we do not wish to drive these people underground as they are often very knowledgeable people or even experts as well as pleasant individuals who want to learn more about the actual butterflies & moths themselves and not always just put a number or a tick on a recording form.
Kind regards....Lee.

[lee3764]

Thanks for the thoughts! I don't use a net myself - but my colleagues use them for ID purposes and, without which, our tally would be nothing like the number we eventually reach. More importantly, the information is valuable and is always passed on to the relevant authority once we've sorted the IDs out.

RIght - off to the airport now (flying in the morning). I might get a chance to post updates while in Spain but, if not, you know why!

Cheers,

- Pete

I hope you have a great time in Spain & use a net if you have to for ID purposes. It's better to be accurate especially with more different species that are found in Spain. Don't get sunburnt either.
Cheers,
Lee.

[Gruditch]

Do you own these insects?

No I do not own the insects Lee, but they are on a private nature reserve, and the wishes of the Wardens & Rangers who look after those reserves should be respected.

Regards Gruditch

[lee3764]

Do you own these insects?

No I do not own the insects Lee, but they are on a privet nature reserve, and the wishes of the Wardens & Rangers who look after those reserves should be respected.

Regards Gruditch

Fair enough where the warden of a particular reserve does not allow nets on it. What with the 'Therefore its safer to have a blanket ban on netting'?
This is what I mean by not allowing nets at all. Why (and who would impose it) have a blanket ban on nets? Far too draconian and it would limit quite dramatically the important scientific study of butterflies and moths. Almost everyone who uses a net is NOT a collector! It a unidentifiable moth has to be taken home for further id then that is fine. All net carriers should not be tarred with the same brush.
You're still welcome on one of our field meetings. We hold them every year. A lot more people in Cornwall know a lot more about butterflies partly due to our relaxed attitude to nets.
More feedback or opinions anyone? There seems to be many people who are a little afraid to use a net in case they get a verbal rollocking if someone who doesn't like nets sees them carrying one!
This needs airing so we can all actually enjoy Butterflies and Moths instead of biting off the heads of those enthusiastic lepidopterists who are brave enough to carry a net!
Keep enjoying your Butterflies and Moths everyone as I have for the past 39 years.
Lee.

[Piers]

Gary is right. The wishes of the land owner/land manager are paramount. If the policy is 'no nets' it really should be respected.

If you have a legitimate reason to use a net, 99% of the time (in my experience anyway) the land owner/land manager will be happy to let you go ahead. Most of the time merely having the courtesy to seek permission first is enough. Besides, whether or not you get a "yes" if often a pretty good test of how legitimate your reason to use a net actually is. If the land owner/organisation says "no" you have to ask yourself how legitimate your reason for using a net actually is.

The only thing I would add is that if you do see an individual using a net, he may indeed have permission to use one, and he may not be interested in butterflies or moths either! A net is a legitimate tool in the serious study of most other insect orders.

Having said that; in my experience (again -sorry-), if someone does approach you and politely asks why you are using a net, if you politely reply that you have permission from the land owner and explain your reasons for using one, the great majority of people will be very interested in what you are studying and why.

Interestingly, the use of moth traps has a far greater potential to harm lepidoptera populations than the use of butterfly nets; and there are probably a lot more people who collect moth specimens these days that those that collect butterflies. At the moment moth traps do not have the stigma attached to them that insect nets do.

But that's another topic for another thread....

Felix.

[Gruditch]

With the Forestry Commission now asking BC for its members to report any suspected collectors, it kind of sends out a mixed message if the branches are then encouraging its members in use nets.

We have over a 1000 members in Hants & IOW BC, if they were to all take up netting as part of their butterfly excursions, it would be a bit impractical. One PB in the Eastern Clearing, Bentley Wood, could possible get netted half a dozen times in a day. Plus any prospective collector would find it a whole lot easier to go about his unsavoury business unnoticed.

Regards Gruditch