Extinct species

[Matsukaze]

A report from Natural England makes the claim that 17 butterfly species are recorded as having gone extinct from Britain. A handful are well-documented - but were the Niobe Fritillary, Weaver's Fritillary, Mallow Skipper, Hermit, Mountain Dappled White, Scarce Swallowtail, Large Wall, Sooty Copper, Scarce Copper, Apollo, Turquoise Blue and Oberthur's Grizzled Skipper ever actually resident here?

Available at http://naturalengland.etraderstores.com ... Shop/NE233

[Pete Eeles]

... but were the Niobe Fritillary, Weaver's Fritillary, Mallow Skipper, Hermit, Mountain Dappled White, Scarce Swallowtail, Large Wall, Sooty Copper, Scarce Copper, Apollo, Turquoise Blue and Oberthur's Grizzled Skipper ever actually resident here?

I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests these species have ever been resident. Therefore, the claims also seem rather unfounded to me also!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Gruditch]

According to the books I've read, and a quick check on Wikipedia, these are the only species we have lost

Black-veined White - 1925 ,Large Blue - 1979 (reintroduced) , Large Chequered Skipper – ca.1989 (non-native, Channel Islands) , Large Copper - 1865 , Large Tortoiseshell (may be recolonising) , Map - ca.1914 (non-native) , and the Mazarine Blue - 1906

So that's a pretty outrageous report.

Regards Gruditch

[Dave McCormick]

Apollo: Recorded last in 1986, possibly introduced earlier in horticulture produce, recordings may be falsified by rearings in captivity.

the MBGBI Vol 7 Part 2 says the first records of it being a British species was Haworth (1803) and Donovan (1808). Most sights were on the Ilse of Lewis or West Highlands of Scotland. The Scottish records may have been attemped introductions, Thomson said they could have been migrants from Scandinavia or the Continant and not attempted introductions and this theory should not be wholey dismissed, but its been said the locations they were found in the Scottish Highlands did not support this.

All the later records were from the South or South Eastern England Newman (1870-71) mentions one caught in Cornwall which could have been imported in plants for a greenhouse. ANother was recorded by G.B, Wollaston, had seen and captured one on the cliffs of Dover in late August or early September 1847 or 1848. One was also taken in Epping, Essex also in 1847 or 1848.

Getting to more recent records, a caputure of one was at Folkstone Warren on 3rd August 1955 as well as a camberwell beauty taken on the same day at the same time there was a influx of Great Brocade (Eurois occulata) and non British form of Scarce Silver Y (Syngrapha interrogationis) on the coasts of Essex and Kent which were belived to have came from the Western slopes of the Alps and at the other times (1889, 1920 and 1928) the Apollo was found there was also large immigrations and also in 1889, 8 camberwell beauty were found, so the Apollo could be a rare, occational natural migrant.

[Padfield]

The report makes very strange reading. It even gives the dates of extinction (I presume that's what the dates represent) for the species:

Aporia crataegi (Black-veined white) 1890s/1920s
Argynnis niobe (Niobe fritillary) 1895
Boloria dia (Weaver’s fritillary) c1890
Carcharodus alceae (Mallow skipper) c1925
Carterocephalus palaemon (Chequered skipper) 1976
Chazara briseis (The Hermit) c1850
Cyaniris semiargus (Mazarine blue) 1903
Euchloe simplonia (Mountain dappled white)
Iphicles podalirius (Scarce swallowtail) c1850
Lasiommata maera (Large wall brown) c1935
Lycaena dispar (Large copper) 1864
Lycaena tityrus (Sooty copper) c1890
Lycaena virgaureae (Scarce copper) 1860
Nymphalis polychloros (Large tortoiseshell) c1953
Parnassius Apollo (Apollo) c1850
Plebicula dorylas (Turquoise blue) c1915
Pontia daplidice (Bath white) 1900
Pyrgus armoricanus (Oberthur’s grizzled skipper) c1860

Much of that is misleading in the extreme!! Large wall brown went extinct in England in 1935... ??
They fail to mention some species that really might have gone extinct (though it is purely speculation), like Arran brown, which has been captured on Arren and could reasonably have existed there at low density before its discovery, given its similarity to Scotch argus, or purple-edged copper.

Bizarre!

But the report is an important document all the same, which makes its errors more significant.

Guy

PS : I note it includes E. simplonia and calls it 'mountain dappled white'. As we discussed recently, that dappled white has never even been recorded in Britain, being native to the Alps and Pyrenees... Had it said 'dappled white' it would simply have reflected the H & R confusion, but as it used the qualification 'mountain' we can be sure the person who compiled it did not know their butterflies!

[Matsukaze]

It is very disturbing that this should be put out by a government agency, especially when they include comments to the effect that 24% of English native butterfly species have gone extinct. Critics of it will have a field day...

I guess the Arran Brown is omitted as the report is based on England only (therefore the Chequered Skipper is quite rightly listed).

[Piers]

Could probably let them have the Scarce Copper as a gesture of good will as there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that it was a resident species up until the C19th.

It does make you wonder about the rest of the information that they've produced here though.

Recent job vacancies for the organisation have specified that knowledge of the subject matter is not required. It would appear that this recruitment policy is bearing fruit..!!

Felix.

[NickB]

It does seem a long list with some dubious names on it! Historical records are notoriously difficult to interpret; many of the rarer sightings turn out to have come from importers or breeders who found them surprisingly close to their residences (!) or were all close to each other on the edge of London (convenient, eh!).....
Since there was serious money at stake (gentlemen collectors in the 19th century paid large sums for "rare" UK resident butterflies for their collections) a good number of their reports had an interest other than scientific....
Let us hope our generation does not oversee the loss of more species...
N

[Neil Jones]

Could probably let them have the Scarce Copper as a gesture of good will as there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that it was a resident species up until the C19th.

It does make you wonder about the rest of the information that they've produced here though.

Recent job vacancies for the organisation have specified that knowledge of the subject matter is not required. It would appear that this recruitment policy is bearing fruit..!!

Felix.

That is a very poor policy and indeed may be responsible for these really peculiar claims.
How many other poor claims are in the document I wonder?
Has someone informed English Nature? Someone should!

[NickB]

With so many agencies and "experts" involved I am not surprised that confusion arises!
For example:
Locally our Natural History Society still insists that we DO have Small Blue near Cambridge; my local BC branch however has one record from 2001 and none since at that site, despite regular transects and visits to their last known sightings; 2 other single/2 butterflies reports at different sites date from 2004. It is therefore officially locally extinct -
but not perhaps if you ask the CNHS
N

[Neil Jones]

With so many agencies and "experts" involved I am not surprised that confusion arises!
For example:
Locally our Natural History Society still insists that we DO have Small Blue near Cambridge; my local BC branch however has one record from 2001 and none since at that site, despite regular transects and visits to their last known sightings; 2 other single/2 butterflies reports at different sites date from 2004. It is therefore officially locally extinct -
but not perhaps if you ask the CNHS
N

I think that comment demonstrates the need to use proper evidence. We had an "expert" in our local wildlife trust who used to ,much to my annoyance, keep telling people there were 200 Marsh Fritillary colonies in Mid-Glamorgan It was complete tripe of course. There aren't that number in Wales as a whole and the damage this did to the conservation of the species was enormous. Take a look at this article. This was the most important site in the centre of a group of colonies that has now been designated a SAC. Some of the habitat right next door has been found to be the home of a plant species known from just 2 other UK sites.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ra ... 92925.html

[Zonda]

Recent job vacancies for the organisation have specified that knowledge of the subject matter is not required. It would appear that this recruitment policy is bearing fruit..!!

As in most organisations and probably all positions of a crucial nature. Let me out,,,,let me out!

[NickB]

I also have a problem with "Experts" much nearer to home.
I run the Wildlife/Management Group for the local Friends group in Mill Road Cemetery. One of my friends is lucky enough to live in the old Cemetery Lodge, now a private dwelling. Both he and his wife report seeing dormice "two or three times" in their garden last year; another local reports one in her garden that backs onto the cemetery. When I call the local mammal group to report this I am met with such an arrogant and dismissive attitude I was amazed they were actually interested in mammal sightings. Because the Cemetery is in the heart of Cambridge they thought " there is no way for them to get there" and "highly unlikely that it would sustain dormice". That is without even seeing the site, or talking to those who actually saw them!

I guess the dormice have no access to "experts" - otherwise they would not have made the cemetery their home!

It does make me angry
N

[Gruditch]

Hi guys, I gave them a ping, just to ask why they included the species they did, and this was Natural England's response.

Enjoy, Regards Gruditch



Thank you for the feedback you recently submitted using our online
feedback facility.
I have been in contact with the authors of the report and passed on your
comments. In turn they have asked me to thank you getting in touch and
to communicate our response, as follows.
“Residency” was not a pre-requisite for inclusion. Regular migrants (whether
cetaceans, birds or invertebrates) are part of our fauna too and their loss or decline
is also cause for concern. Indeed, the evidence for the status of a number of
species as residents is ambivalent. In the past, these records have been dismissed
as deliberate or accidental introductions or as migrants but the evidence to support
those opinions is no greater than the view that they just might have been very rare
species which died out as a result of the vast landscape changes that took place in
England over the past two centuries. Rather than seeking every possible excuse
for dismissing those butterflies as non-residents we are re-examining the evidence
in the light of information about landscape changes and the loss of other species to
find out if there is a consistent trend that may indicate a different scale of species
loss than we had hitherto accepted.
I hope that this addresses your concerns. Please got get in touch with me
if I can be of any further assistance.

[Padfield]

Guy

[Pete Eeles]

"Rather than seeking every possible excuse for dismissing those butterflies as non-residents we are re-examining the evidence in the light of information about landscape changes and the loss of other species to find out if there is a consistent trend that may indicate a different scale of species loss than we had hitherto accepted."

This really does contradict itself - on the one hand they're saying that it can't be proven one way or another that such species were resident - and then they go and assume that they were (or, at least, that's the impression given in the report). I wonder why they didn't add species that have never been known to occur in the British Isles, on the assumption that once upon a time they might have been

I thought scientists based their conclusions on fact. Hmmm. Really makes a mockery of the whole thing. But I guess we knew that otherwise this thread wouldn't exist!

Cheers,

- Pete

[NickB]

Yes - to summarise their long-winded reply...

"We haven't got a clue - so we'll just re-hash everything that has ever been published instead."


N
edit: ..to be fair, they didn't include Albin's Hampstead Eye...

[Roger Gibbons]

I have a copy of W S Coleman’s British Butterflies of 1893. It includes several species as having possibly once occurred in the UK. It doesn’t say they did exist, but simply recounts the historical evidence of who said they saw it and when, without endorsement.

Coleman includes Black-veined White (not uncommon), Bath White (rare) and Mazarine Blue (possibly extinct) as current resident species, and Large Copper as almost certainly (in 1893) extinct.

Large Tortoiseshell and Chequered Skipper are obviously beyond doubt.

There seems to be little doubt that Scarce Swallowtail did occur sporadically until the mid-1800s although probably as a vagrant. It reports two sightings of Weaver’s Fritillary which has certain distinguishing features compared to the Pearl-bordered Fritillary and thus unlikely to be a mis-identification. It also mentions Apollo, Purple-edged Copper, Arran Brown and Long-tailed Blue as possible one-time UK species. I personally have my doubts about Apollo and Purple-edged Copper, neither of which is particularly migratory and their distributions in Europe preclude the possibility of wind-assisted vagrants. Apollo could have been once resident in upland regions, of course, in much the same way as Mountain Ringlet and Scotch Argus still are. Arran Brown could conceivably have occurred in Scotland (I have serious doubts, but we have had this debate before), and Long-tailed Blue is a known occasional migrant.

Map was an attempted introduction in the Forest of Dean in 1912 or so I believe, and the entire population was wiped out in a single season by an entomologist who objected to non-indigenous species being introduced. An emotive and contentious issue even then!

Coleman makes no reference to any of the other species listed by Natural England, and given that he seems to have been quite thorough and given house room to some rather dodgy reports, I would be very surprised if any of other species ever occurred here.

What about Camberwell Beauty, Queen of Spain Fritillary (once resident, before its recent return)? What about Short-tailed (Bloxworth) Blue, last recorded in 1952, worryingly not even mentioned by Coleman (although it may not have been known in 1893)?

I concur with everyone else on this thread that to publish such a report is irresponsible in the extreme. They are certainly not scientists. Science is evidence-based. It is quite staggering that they should publish a list without reference, apparently, to BC. Who funds these idiots?

No doubt their employment policies make it impossible for them to discriminate against people who actually have no knowledge of the subject and no scientific training.

Notwithstanding their waffly non-response to Gruditch, I suggest they should be asked what evidence (including any historical records or published reports) they have to suggest that any of Niobe Fritillary, Mallow Skipper, Hermit, Mountain Dappled White, Sooty Copper, Scarce Copper, Turquoise Blue and Oberthur's Grizzled Skipper ever occurred in the UK.

If they cannot give any credible response, and we could give them the benefit of any doubt if they can provide a source that they might be entitled to believe, they should be asked exactly why they made these assertions.

Roger

[Neil Hulme]

This report is bad science at its very worst. If the mere 'handful' of sightings of some of the listed species are attributed to 'excessively rare vagrants', then it beats me how any link can be made to the 'vast landscape changes that took place in England over the past two centuries'. 'Residency' of some of the listed butterflies seems inconceivable, particularly when these habitats were awash with Victorian natural historians, and the collectors and dealers who almost certainly put them there. 'Proof positive' is notoriously difficult to achieve in the natural world - so are we to accept that the Siberian Tigers and Orang-utan that had undoubtedly escaped from early zoos, might equally reflect the presence of very small resident populations?
The author of the report would do well to apply the principles of 'Ockham's Razor' to this data. This meta-theoretical principle, attributed to the 14th Century English friar William of Ockham, became widely adopted by scientists and is equally applicable today. It boils down to the assumption that, in the absence of 'proof positive', the simplest solution is usually the correct one. Returning to NE's reply to Gary's enquiry, "In the past, these records have been dismissed
as deliberate or accidental introductions or as migrants but the evidence to support those opinions is no greater than the view that they just might have been very rare species which died out", YES IT IS.
Neil

[Padfield]

That's a well-considered and balanced response, Roger, but I think you are too generous! A government advisory agency is peddling misinformation in a report which is in principle of great importance to those of us who care about wild nature. Worse, it is attempting to defend its mistake with a specious and self-contradictory justification I wouldn't accept from one of my school students.

The document states:

"We do know that 12% of land mammals, 22% of amphibians and 24% of our native butterflies have been lost...". That is a fairly straightforward knowledge claim. Now, taking the current number of 'native' butterflies to be 58, the implication is that they 'know' there were formerly approximately 76 species. From the reply Gruditch got it is clear that far from knowing this they are at best speculating (even citing lack of evidence against the thesis in support of their case!). This entirely undermines the authority of what should be a very important document and also gives the strong impression the authors don't really care.

Gruditch: I think you should reply and ask for considerable further information. As Britain's leading amateur butterfly community, we would be extremely interested to know more about the research they have carried out which suggests, for example, that a southern/central European butterfly of hot rocky slopes, like the hermit, was ever resident in England.

Guy