Picos id`s please.

[roundwood123]

Could someone confirm my id`s please, The butterflies are all fom June in Northern Spain.
Steve
1, Heath Fritillary.
2, Not sure.
3, False Ilex Fritillary.
4, Blue Spot Fritillary.
5, PBF?.

[traplican]

I'm not an expert so I guess only:
1) Heath Fritillary.
2) Provençal Fritillary?
3) Sloe Hairstreak
4) Blue Spot Hairstreak
5) Pearl Bordered Fritillary

Traplican

[Pete Eeles]

My first pass would be:

1, Heath Fritillary (because I don't know any better!)
2, Heath Fritillary (because I don't know any better!)
3, False Ilex Hairstreak.
4, Blue Spot Hairstreak.
5, Dark Green Fritillary (definitely looks like one of the Argynnis family to me).

Cheers,

- Pete

[traplican]

3, False Ilex Hairstreak.

Probably you're right.

[Mikhail]

I agree with Pete except for no 2, which I'm pretty sure is Provençal Frit. You can see foxy red hairs on the palps, which rules out Heath Frit.

Misha

[traplican]

I agree with Pete except for no 2, which I'm pretty sure is Provençal Frit. You can see foxy red hairs on the palps, which rules out Heath Frit.

Misha

I have noted the palps.

Ad 5.: Definitely Argynnis. Maybe High Brown or Niobe?

[JKT]

Ad 5.: Definitely Argynnis. Maybe High Brown or Niobe?

My vote is on A. aglaja.

[traplican]

Ad 5.: Definitely Argynnis. Maybe High Brown or Niobe?

My vote is on A. aglaja.

And now mine, too!
http://www.guypadfield.com/darkgreenfritillary.html

[roundwood123]

Thanks to everyone for your efforts, I think i have just about worked my way through this years unknowns. Steve

[Padfield]

Mikhail is at least as knowledgeable as me, and might have more experience of Spanish deione, but my opinion at least is that the second fritillary can't be this. I see deione every year in Switzerland, but unfortunately ours are the rather different subspecies berisalii, so this doesn't really help. But I have seen deione in the Pyrenees, both males and females, and studied lots of picture of them from Spain and France, and although the species is variable the submarginal regions, particularly of the forewings, are never like this. The heavy branding obscuring the detail around the orange submarginal spots looks quite wrong to me. The jizz also seems quite wrong. When I looked at these pictures, deione didn't even occur to me as a possibility.

The palpi thing does seem to me to be a red herring and misled me for a long time. This is a 100% bona fide heath fritillary from Switzerland:



Only the very tips of the antennae are black. There is no possible doubt about the ID.

Conversely, this is an indubitable deione (berisalii). The detail of the underside hindwing, with those beautiful black lunules, is the giveway here.



I agree the last butterfly is most probably aglaja. I also agree with the false ilex, on balance. That's a species that is easy to identify in the field but that I often start umming and erring about with photos! When I saw my first false ilex hairstreaks in Portugal nearly twenty years ago I was struck by how reddish the lunules looked and it is often the shade of these markings that gives it away in the field.

I flew back to the UK yesterday, leaving my house in Huémoz at -13 degrees and arriving back in East Anglia to what felt like exactly the same temperature! And just as much snow! Beautiful.

Guy

[Mikhail]

Interesting, Guy. I agree it does not look like a typical deione, but given the colour of the palps, what do you suggest it is?

Misha

[roundwood123]

Whoops, I am not going to be popular for this but i have just found an underside shot of number 2, does this help.

[Padfield]

I just wrote a really long reply, then clicked on one of the pictures, clicked return, and lost my reply. It's now my turn to do the washing up, so my words of wisdom will have to wait until tomorrow. In brief, though, the underside shot does suggest I'm wrong, but I find the upperside picture extremely interesting and useful if that is the case!

Guy

[Paul]

ok... so can someone tell me why the argynnis isn't a lesser marbled frit????.. genuine request... I could have made an awful lot of mis-Ids over this!!
I would also put the Hairstreak as false ilex, but the second one down... it would be labelled as Heath in my file

[Pete Eeles]

ok... so can someone tell me why the argynnis isn't a lesser marbled frit????

So you agree it's Argynnis and not Brenthis then?

I have to admit, I initially thought Marbled Frit, but the photos and books tell a different story. The main criterion in this case was the proximity of the chevrons to the wing edges. In Marbled and Lesser Marbled (Brenthis) frits, these seem to be "floating", whereas in Argynnis sp. (and the photo posted) they're not.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

I'm quite sure you haven't been making mistakes with lesser marbled/dark green, Paul, because in the field they're completely different. But for the record, here's a lesser marbled:



Look at the marginal and submarginal markings - very different. The wing shape of Brenthis is also characteristic, having to my mind a fan-shaped look about it.

I've finished the washing up but am waiting for Tim and Matt to give me their opinions on the Mellicta before I write another long post. I hope Roger will comment too, as he lives in deione country The upperside says athalia loud and clear to me.

Guy

[Padfield]

My absolute first thought when I saw the second frit was vernetensis (a form of false heath frit, diamina), but then I rejected that on the grounds that this form only flies in the Pyrenees. If it, or something like it, is possible in the Picos, then I'd go for that. The underside compares extremely well to my own photos of vernetensis undersides (they are quite different from the normal diamina and do often have that dark brand all around the inside of the submarginal lunules on the underside hindwing). Unfortunately I have no European books in England to check in.

Matt thinks deione is possible, but he's not convinced.

Guy

[roundwood123]

Thanks again Guy, I have just booked another 2 weeks in the Picos for June, I will make a bigger effort to get underside shots this time. Steve

[Paul]

phew, it's OK, have just been through all my brethnis, and even by the differences you pointed out they remain brethnis .... I'd never noticed the floatingness of the marginal lunules....... and yes Guy, I guess they are quite different in the field, probably why I never questioned it before!! .. thanks both of you..... and Pete, my original wording was careful 'cos I knew the collective opinion would not be wrong in favour of my offering!!

Tolman puts vernetensis in the E. Pyrenees and Cantabrian mts

[Padfield]

You're probably ready to let this one drop, Roundwood, but I didn't get where I am today by letting things drop...

Tim's verdict also came back 'could be deione', so I have to accept it could be. The only ups photo I've got here of vernetensis has quite different palpi but is otherwise a good match. With Paul's information that this does fly in the Cantabrians I'd prefer that option, palpi permitting. In the Pyrenees, dark and bright forms of diamina fly, with the light forms (vernetensis) higher up (on my regular walks anyway). I got a feel for them in the field and usually found them quite easy to identify, mostly on jizz.

I'll have another look when I get back to CH. In the meantime, have a very happy Christmas!

Guy