Large Copper?

[Piers]

It may never be necessary for you to know this Zonda, but please appreciate that it may be necessary for others; if only for a greater understanding of our biodiversity. But hey, who gives a toss about that eh?

Besides if we were talking about a fly that just flew up from a badger carcass or a dog turd, or a mosquito on your bedroom wall would you object so much? I would hazzard a guess that you have killed insects in your life for no real reason at all! Perhaps not brightly coloured insects with pretty wings, but insects all the same. Do you pace a greater value on the life of a moth than on the life of a tick, flea, or a fly?

They're all insects but some insects are more emotive than others.

Felix.
(well ok, ticks aren't but you get the idea...)

[Zonda]

Note the amount of times 'WE' is mentioned here. There is no species on earth that knows or even accepts the existence of 'WE'..........Realise this! ........'WE' are the problem here................. Make a farm if you wish, or make a wildlife park, but 'WE' are the problem here. Our practices, and way of life are standing in the way.

[Zonda]

Tell me that isn't true Felix.

[Zonda]

Dont think so

[Zonda]

I remain, however, your biggest admirer...

[doggie]

Ok, I've done some research into this and studied many images and videos.

Having watched the following video I'm certain this is the species that I saw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xls_6L7p-Nc

Also this pic, the groundside which I got a really got look at.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/390 ... 71ecec.jpg

The only other species that I've hesitated at was the clouded yellow - but it's actually not even close.

[Dave]

Simple way to solve this, why not start a poll - Who disagrees with killing for identification and who agrees with killing for identification. Could someone set that up so we can get over it. Incidentally if the latter option gets more than 2 votes.......

[Padfield]

It was the size of a peacock and had a powerful flight like a red admiral.

This is the rub. I don't see how a large copper could possibly give this impression. It is a Lycaenid - a smallish butterfly with a flappy flight. Although I have no idea what you saw (!), and it may have been some exotic escape, I take your flight description to rule out large copper definitively.

On the other issue, I don't think Dave's proposed poll (yes, I know you were joking) would help ! The question is not so much 'is it right or wrong?' but 'under what circumstances might we consider it the lesser of two evils?'

Guy

PS - Now I remember it, I did once see a large copper on a mission, in direct flight, going somewhere. It moved quite fast and in a straight line (along a river bank) but with rapid wingbeats, not the powerful or cruising motion of a vanessid. And it looked small. I knew it was large copper (as opposed to scarce copper) because I'd just been watching them at a site with my friend, Tim Cowles, and we were at a second site where he had seen one in the past. Scarce copper was not known to fly there.

[Piers]

Simple way to solve this, why not start a poll - Who disagrees with killing for identification and who agrees with killing for identification. Could someone set that up so we can get over it. Incidentally if the latter option gets more than 2 votes.......

Hi Dave,

It's not really at all relevant to the debate who agrees or disagrees, in fact by the very nature of this forum I am certain that most people (quite rightly) would not want to kill a lep (irrespective of how they may kill another type of insect without thought or care) and I am certainly not advocating that they do. In one of my posts above in fact, I do state that it is best left to people who know exactly what they are doing.

The fact is that for some species of leps (and for the majority of other insect orders) in order to confirm an ID the microscopic examination of diagnostic features is necessary.

Most people would be perfectly happy to record 'a fly of the genus xxx' or 'probable common rustic moth' and that's absolutely fine. I am not advocating the everyone starts dispatching every insect that they find in order to identify it.

What amazes me however, is the reluctance that some people may have to accept that in order to identify certain species of insect it is necessary at all.

And finally some food for thought for moth-trappers who act with indignation at the thought of killing a moth in order to identify it:

Anyone who runs a moth trap out of curiosity to find what species occur in their gardens etc. is directly responsible for the deaths of moths that would otherwise have survived had the trap not been run; either through predation while the trap is running at night by bats (who are known to home in on the unnatural congregation of activity), by insectivorous mammals attracted to those moths which 'ground' around the trap during the night, or by birds the following morning who pick off significant numbers of moths roosting conspicuously around the trap or those moths that fail to roost naturally following the examination and release of the catch.

Like it or not, by running the trap you will indirectly kill a percentage of the moths that are attracted to it. These moths die as a result of a man's curiosiity and desire to compile local 'lists', just as another moth may be killed in order to facilitate identification.

Felix.

[Dave]

Felix,
Interesting points but from the start I'll say that I am utterly against it and would personally and happilly stop anybody in the field I saw trying to take specimens.
I'm sure you're correct that some species can only be identified by dissection however, what is the point? Fine you now know the species occurs and its can go on a lovely shiny list that's earned someone some money and provided super but meaningless reading for whoever commissioned but can you give me even one instance where this list has changed anything? Does the presence of a moth stop a development or does it enable the reclamation of derelict ground into a reserve.
I'll pre-empt if I may - no, of course it doesn't.
My interests lie in the following fields.
Reptiles - Constant talk about how to kill Wall Lizards even though any impact they have is unproven. Oh and if you're a member of any amphibian species other that the natives you're apprently on a par with Satan.
Birds - A new cull every week with Ruddy Duck, Canada Geese, Mute Swan, Ring-necked Parakeet and new info this week suggest soon that Common Buzzard and Sparrowhawk will eventually come into the firing line.
Mammals - Grey Squirrel, Black Rat, Edible Dormouse and on and on it goes and I am utterly sick of it.
Granted it's only insects in this country that are killed for id although tv programmes such as that recent volcano thing neglect to say that anything new to science needs to be "collected" so that Giant Rat wouldn't have lasted long after the cameras went off.
Felix I don't care what you do for a living I really don't, good luck to you. I don't agree with it in any way but that's my perogative. I just take exception that you are constantly trying to justify it. Leave it out, this is normally a good tempered forum for the sharing of experiences with leps and the enjoyment therein. How likely is it that everyone going to suddenly agree with you?

[Dave McCormick]

I am wondering if it was a fritillary you saw? They can have a grayish underside and the orange upperside and if it was something like a the Queen of Spain or Dark Green Fritillaries, they are about the size of a peacock

[Piers]

I just take exception that you are constantly trying to justify it. Leave it out, this is normally a good tempered forum for the sharing of experiences with leps and the enjoyment therein.

Hi Dave,

I am not attempting to justify anything, I have no need to do so.
As I stated clearly, I'm not suggesting anyone kills anything, just stating facts about identification (and moth trapping).
And most of my posts were responses to Dave McCormick not to you, just in case there was any confusion there.

Furthermore in the interest of a good tempered forum if you wish to take anything up with me personally then I strongly suggest you PM me and we'll take it off line. My posts (which from your response you clearly haven't read properly) are merely statements of fact, this is no place for a slanging match.

Regards,

Felix.

[Dave]

"And my posts were responses to Dave McCormick not to you, just in case there was any confusion there"

Hi,
Sorry I got a little confused there I thought your post starting "Hi Dave" and headed with a quote from my post was addressed to me. and I don't mean the last post.

[Dave McCormick]

"And my posts were responses to Dave McCormick not to you, just in case there was any confusion there"

Hi,
Sorry I got a little confused there I thought your post starting "Hi Dave" and headed with a quote from my post was addressed to me. and I don't mean the last post.

Yeah having more than one Dave on the forums here sometimes can be comfusing if more than one posts a reply on same subject

[Padfield]

Hmm... As a non-driving vegan (no, Zonda, I don't even eat road-kill, which I guess makes me a total wuss in your eyes ) who on more than one occasion has seriously p***** off complete strangers by liberating the wasps they were trying to drown in beer gardens (twice this summer, at the Eele's Foot, as it happens), I naturally find myself agreeing with many of Dave's sentiments (that's the Dave who isn't Dave McCormick). I wish there were more people like him. I also agree that the persecution of non-native species like the grey squirrel, when it involves poisoning and trapping, is scandalous. There isn't an individual human in Britain who causes less environmental damage than an individual grey squirrel but we take it all out on the squirrels.

HOWEVER, even I removed ticks from my dog and destroyed them. I hated doing it, but I judged it the right thing to do. My dog was vegan but my cat (whom I rescued) eats meat. I hate that too. I don't compromise myself in this - I simply accept that the world isn't the place an idealist might wish it to be and I make judgments, which inevitably involve compromising principles. In fact, a very wise man, who is now dead, once said to me, 'Never trust a man who acts on principle'. And he had a point. Absolutist adherence to principles would only work in an absolutely ideal world. In this world, we sometimes have to get our hands dirty.

From what I know of Felix, with whom I've had many a discussion on these forums, he's a very decent and intelligent man. We've never fallen out over an issue and I respect his judgments and I think he respects mine. I've just re-read his posts and I can't find anything to take exception to, apart perhaps from the graphic descriptions !

So I suggest you both come round to my place tonight for a pint of homebrew, a vegetable vindaloo and a few butterfly vids. Oh, and we might watch a spot of Buffy afterwards. She only kills evil, soulless vampires.

Guy


(Buffy round my place in 2005, protecting the animals from evil blood-sucking fiends)

[Zonda]

I was just looking at the Rogues Gallery posts Guy, and i have seen fatter legs on ostriches. However, i will not be judging you on that basis. I know that you and Felix are both very knowledgeable entomologists, and respect is deserved from rank upstarts like me. No way, i'm so good that i dont kill anything, of course i do,,,,,,,1000 insects a day in the car probably. I eat meat, fish, and wild fungi. However, i do worry about the world my grandchildren will inherit.

[Danny]

All this talk about taking butterflies and getting the Carbon Tet out so you can examine their bits and pieces is a bit bizarre to me. When I was 11 or so I used to do it with my dad. I had books which explained how to go about mounting them..I think it's all in the Observers book... then at some point it just seemed utterly dire and I didn't do it anymore...these days with digital cameras and so on, it seems completely pointless and not really in the spirit of what we're all about. If I spotted anybody taking individuals I'd stop them (unless they looked like Mike Tyson in a Hoodie).

I've always thought this concept was an established fact. I suppose if the person was some sort of massive scientist then it'd be OK..but I'd want to see his card!

My main bug bare in the contentious stakes re butterflying is the use of nets. When I go on holiday in europe I have to take a net (and my Tristan de Francis book) because it's the only way I can identify the insects.

Danny

[Piers]

The Obsever's Book of Insect Genitalia. A very useful title.

I must have missed that one...

[Danny]

Sir Sir! (Hand waving frantically in the air) Felix is posting salacious posts again.

Danny

[Piers]

I'm trying not to laugh but that is pretty funny Mr D.

In the words of the late Hon. Alan Clark, I deserve to be horse whipped...

Felix.
Ps. Sincerely sorry to hear you didn't manage to see the QoS Danny. Lets hope that some ill intentioned individual hasn't whipped it's genitalia out.