Large Copper?

[Piers]

Guy,

You do yourself an acute injustice: surely you are the very definition of an entomologist (or at least lepidopterist); studying the insects for the advancement of knowledge and acquisition of the necessary tools with which to implement the further conservation and preservation of insect biodiversity.

Photography is an end in itself (although that's not to say that many conservationists and lepidopterists are not top-drawer photographers, and vice-versa), as is the mere collection of specimens for the sole purpose of amassing a collection of specimens. The two hobbies are closely related bed-fellows.

Your studies into the distribution, behaviour, ecology, and natural history of European butterflies clearly goes far beyond mere self fulfilment. And in answer to your self directed question: if the sacrifice of one (or two, or three) eriphyle specimens serve to prevent the loss of the entire colony through habitat destruction then of course it's a worthy sacrifice. That's exactly what it is all about!

Felix.

[Dave McCormick]

Your studies into the distribution, behaviour, ecology, and natural history of European butterflies clearly goes far beyond mere self fulfilment. And in answer to your self directed question: if the sacrifice of one (or two, or three) eriphyle specimens serve to prevent the loss of the entire colony through habitat destruction then of course it's a worthy sacrifice. That's exactly what it is all about!

True, but the difference with butterflies, if you want to know what a species is, you can find a image of the similar species genetalia, and ike Lafinches "Butterflies of Europe" shows, you can catch a butterfly, look at its genetalia under a magnafying glass, then release it without harming it, moths are different as they are smaller and you can't really do this. Last night I put out a heath trap and found 2 Epirrita species of moth, now there are 4 in Northern Ireland. The November moth, Autumal Moth, Pale November Moth and Small Autumnal Moth and without looking at the genetalia, you can't find out what it is. I just photographed them and released them, didn't have the heart to take one. However, the only time I might find this ok is if I'd happen to find a large enough number in the trap, taking one might not do much then, but I'd still feel bad doing it.

[Matsukaze]

Hi Felix, I agree with your opinions but wonder about the practicalities, particularly the good faith of those determining whether development should or should not take place. Are there any examples where habitats have been saved from destruction because of the presence of an insect which had to be identified through dissection?

[Matsukaze]

I just released the Epirrita that were in my moth trap last night. They appeared very large and fluttery in flight, reminding me more of a butterfly or a bat than most moths do. Releasing the moths and seeing them fly high into the sky is my favourite part of moth-trapping.

[Piers]

Hi Matsukaze

I am unable to tell you that just off the top of my head I'm afraid, and my point was not really anything to do with a development per se, I merely used that as a fictitious example of a situation where one may be employed to perform an environmental assessment/survey which would necessitate the accurate identification of an insect species. I could have chosen any one of many scenarios where this would be a requirement.

However since you ask; the existence of a rare, threatened, or perhaps RDB species may well sway any planning decisions to the detriment of the developer should a local planning decision already hang in the balance, particularly if the development was proposed in an area already considered sensitive.

Felix.

[Padfield]

It's an interesting question and I can't give details of specific examples either. I suspect in practice it would be necessary to catch the public imagination with something more exciting than an obscure little pug if the conservation cards were to have any chance of trumping the economic ones in a direct face-off. But there can be less dramatic benefits of knowing precisely what flies (or crawls, or swims &c.) where. A more complete ecological understanding of areas not earmarked for direct destruction can obviously still help in their management, and detailed knowledge of a species' distribution can help ensure appropriate habitat is maintained within its range.

It would be silly to deny the great historical (and continuing) importance of collecting and killing to our present understanding of butterflies. Furthermore, there are very few instances where collecting has caused significant harm to wild populations, in terms of their conservation. Nevertheless, I would think it a good thing if we amateurs (literally, 'lovers') of nature sought to maintain that sense of mystery and beauty and respect, that for me is compromised by the act of killing. There is, as Matsukaze says, a great joy in releasing creatures into the sky. I ban all taking of life in my classroom at school and show the kids how to pick up wasps without being stung and let them out of a window instead of swatting them. In all my years of teaching (at 6th form level) I have only ever met respect for this attitude and many students have tried to emulate it. Unfortunately, they do sometimes get stung, because you have to have no fear at all to pick up a wasp and it not react to you!!

Thanks for the kind comments, Felix! And thanks for the PM too.

Guy

[Lee Hurrell]

Guy,

There's nothing like a child's interest blossoming eh? A friend of my girlfriend has 3 year old twins and they already call me 'butterfly Lee'

Whenever they come over they want me to take them and go and find some. This year they've seen Common Blues, Large Whites, Painted Ladies (of course), Commas Meadow Browns, Speckled Woods and a mating pair of Small Whites (yes, I know, good luck with that one). I don't take them too far obviously.

But still, it warms my heart to see their interest grow.

And I would second Felix's comments about your obvious commitment to the study of these marvellous insects.

All the best,

Lee

[Dave McCormick]

I just released the Epirrita that were in my moth trap last night. They appeared very large and fluttery in flight, reminding me more of a butterfly or a bat than most moths do. Releasing the moths and seeing them fly high into the sky is my favourite part of moth-trapping.

Yeah I noticed that they seem to be more "flighty" than other moths and do look like butterflies, maybe speckled woods from a distance. BTW, what moth trap do you use? I was told a Black Tube light can attract a lot of secies, as they are attracted to the UV light as they can see it. Someone I know used that method in a skinner trap and car battery and turned up a few species, he said its the frequency of the light rather than the brightness they are attracted to.

It would be silly to deny the great historical (and continuing) importance of collecting and killing to our present understanding of butterflies. Furthermore, there are very few instances where collecting has caused significant harm to wild populations, in terms of their conservation. Nevertheless, I would think it a good thing if we amateurs (literally, 'lovers') of nature sought to maintain that sense of mystery and beauty and respect, that for me is compromised by the act of killing. There is, as Matsukaze says, a great joy in releasing creatures into the sky. I ban all taking of life in my classroom at school and show the kids how to pick up wasps without being stung and let them out of a window instead of swatting them. In all my years of teaching (at 6th form level) I have only ever met respect for this attitude and many students have tried to emulate it. Unfortunately, they do sometimes get stung, because you have to have no fear at all to pick up a wasp and it not react to you!!

Well if done in the right way, under guidelines and knowing exactly what your doing, it can be ok to kill a specimin for examination. Where I live, its on 1,000 acres and around 900 or so of that is on private ground, rest is open to the public as big gardens and I am the only person that goes around and records the butterfly/moth species here and I know the do's and don'ts when it comes to preserving species and preserving a habitat and so I being a member of BC can go around this area and have a few authorities in some matters in conservation of areas here. Just last night I turned up 4 moths, 3 of one species, and one of another, both scarce in Northern Ireland, which was a nice surprise.

Thats good what you said about kids in your classroom just releasing species. And that wasp thing brings me to remmber a few years back when I was in a workshop in the farm here where wood is processed and tools etc...stored. I was in there and heard this big buzzing sound. I dived uder a bench as it was a Horntail (Urocerus gigas) a pretty freaky large wasp. In the end it was my work partner that caught it, think he even named it George or something before releasing it. I only ever saw one of those once after, what a site, largest wasp I have ever seen.

[Zonda]

When i was a lad, i worked at the weekends in a sawmill. In the spring, some of the imported timber was occasionally known to produce large blue hornets.(From the States, i think.)

[Padfield]

Despite their fearsome appearance, I don't believe horntails sting, so it was probably unnecessary to dive under the bench, Dave! Hornets, on the other hand, deliver quite a punch.

The only sting I got this year was from a bee. A female purple emperor was laying in sallow right next to some hives and I completely ignored the buzzing all around me as I moved in for that prize-winning piccie. Then one of the bees did a Kamikaze dive into my eyebrow and everything went pear-shaped.

Guy

[Dave McCormick]

Despite their fearsome appearance, I don't believe horntails sting, so it was probably unnecessary to dive under the bench, Dave! Hornets, on the other hand, deliver quite a punch.

Oh well, glad I know now, I didn't know much about them then! And yeah I know about hornets, seen enough of them to know when to stay back.

Now, back on the subject of identifying species. I found this, what I think is a Epirrita moth of moth. I caught it in a small plastic box, photographed it and released it. Is this enough to ID such a species or do you have to look under a microsocope?

First I managed to measure and show it here:

Epirrita Measured

Next I managed to get it in a position so I could photograph its rear end:

Epirrita Rear

Then I released it unharmed

[Zonda]

The other day i was looking at some pics of a Hornet moth, which is a very convincing mimic. That led me to think that the Hornets i have spied this season might not have been Hornets. Check out Pete's Scarce Copper pics, just uploaded. First class, i wonder where he took those.

[Dave McCormick]

The other day i was looking at some pics of a Hornet moth, which is a very convincing mimic. That led me to think that the Hornets i have spied this season might not have been Hornets. Check out Pete's Scarce Copper pics, just uploaded. First class, i wonder where he took those.

Well I have noticed that you can tell Hornet moths and Lunar Hornet moths from actual Hornets by their antennae, it looks thicker than in a hornet, plus if you look at its eyes too, you can see they are different than hornets too, the eyes are much bigger on a hornet wasp:



Hornet wasp:


Note, these are not my pics, found on google

[Zonda]

By a rank amateur, and in flight, it seems i might get confuddled. I am not adept at looking at Hornet's eyes in flight.

[Denise]

By a rank amateur, and in flight, it seems i might get confuddled. I am not adept at looking at Hornet's eyes in flight.

I wouldn't want to get close enough to look into a Hornets eyes either.

[Padfield]

That's a brilliant picture of a hornet, Dave!! I really like it.

Guy

[Piers]

Now, back on the subject of identifying species. I found this, what I think is a Epirrita moth of moth. I caught it in a small plastic box, photographed it and released it. Is this enough to ID such a species or do you have to look under a microsocope?

Hi Dave,

The reproductive organs of a moth are held internally, wthin in the lower half of the insect’s abdomen; segments 7,8 and 9.

The photograph is of the exterior of the end of the abdomen. The organs are not visible.

To inspect the genitalia, you need to remove the abdomen of the specimen. Transfer it to a petri dish with a little water. The addition of a few drops of alcohol will lower the surface tension of the water and make working with the specimen easier. The genitalia plate can then be gently teased out by holding the thorax-end of the abdomen with super-fine forceps. A seeker or dissection needle is then moved down the abdomen towards the tip with gentle stroking motions. It is important to keep the specimen covered with fluid while extracting the genitalia plate to prevent air bubbles entering the organs.

As you stroke the abdomen, the genitalia plate will pop out of the tip of the abdomen. The plate is fairly robust and can then be gently held in place while remaining debris is cleaned away. An excavated slide can then be prepared for use with a stereoscopic microscope.

As this process involves the death of the insect it should not be attempted unless you really need to confirm the ID of the specimen and you are confident that you won't make a hash of it and waste the specimen altogether.

An example of a situation where this procedure would be necessary to positively confirm identification among the macros (aside from a multitude of Pugs) would be some of the Minor's, the Ear's, Grey/Dark Dagger, Lesser Common/Common Rustic and November and Pale November moth.

Felix.

[Zonda]

Let em be... Is there a reason why mankind(Homo sapiens) should need such knowledge as this? Why is it necessary for me to know this? Nature can manage without us, sadly.

[Pete Eeles]

Let em be... Is there a reason why mankind(Homo sapiens) should need such knowledge as this? Why is it necessary for me to know this?

Because sometimes you need to know what species exist in a particular area to stop development on sites that hold our precious species. And you also need to know how to ID them.

If it weren't for such practices, we'd have even less of our native fauna around - an unfortunate reality. Roll on the day when we can ID species without resorting to dissection!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Susie]

But they have to be able to catch and dissect something so they can be absolutely sure that it was, indeed, the last of that species. (said in jest, folks, please don't take offence).