Moth IDs Please

[Davey]

Both of these came to a combined MV last night and although there was only a single specimen of the 'one', around the trap and the rest of the garden there were about 20 or so of the 2 in the pill box.
They are from the Sheffield area and like most species local to here are usually of a rather dark form if that helps.
Thanks in advance, Davey

[Dave McCormick]

Hi, these look like one of the Epirrita species, theses are very hard to ID based on photos. I found 2 of these types of moth in my heath trap last night. As UKMoths says:

Three of the members of the genus Epirrita, (November Moth, E. dilutata, Autumnal Moth, E. autumnata, and Pale November Moth, E. chrystyi), can be very difficult to separate on markings alone, especially as some show marked melanism

You need to see the genetalia of the moth to find out exactly what species it is, which usually means killing it and looking under a microscope and I would not condone that at all, so I would not recommed doing that. You do have a few of thoese moths though. You could get a male and female if you find them and if you know what your doing, get them to mate and rear their young, might help determin what it is. I may do this if I find a male and female of the same genus of moths I have been finding here.

[Davey]

Thank you Dave, they will be recorded simply as an Epirrita, probably E. dilutata as, whilst i think it totally acceptable for the confirmation of new species etc, killing and genitalia examination really is taking things too far for me and I'm sure the world will continue spinning if I have a few uncertainties in my records!
With regards to rearing them I will probably have a go at it as another cage to care for will hardly be noticed and I do like rearing new species.
Thanks again, Davey

[JKT]

Not so fast guys! I think it would be worthwhile to consider also the next genus on UKMoths: Operophtera. Unfortunately the two species (O. brumata & O. fagata) are not that easy either. The size is a good hint, but in a picture that doesn't work.

The first picture looks more like Epirrita, while the second seems more Operophtera.

[Dave McCormick]

i JKT,

you could be right on the winter moths there. I disreguarded it as I thought it was a little early to see them. The Northern Winter Moth male has a wingspan of 32-40 mm whereas the Winter Moth male has a wingspan of 22-28 mm if this helps at all.

[Davey]

Thanks for the reply's, the overall wing span of all 3 of them is 36mm, if this helps. I was quite surprised about this as I thought that there were 2 different species, and perhaps there are but considering variations in markings from type, perhaps they are all the same species.
Thanks again, Davey

[JKT]

If they are that big, they probably all are Epirritas. O. fagata is usually clearly lighter and even more "weak"-looking and the other one is never that large.