Large Copper

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Gruditch
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Gruditch »

Mark Senior wrote:I know of a perfect site for Duke Of Burgundy's
Just because a site looks perfect for Dukes, it doesn't always follow that they will thrive there, ask the Head Warden at Bentley Wood.
Mark Senior wrote:I
have no connection whatsoever with the breeding of butterflies and have never released any captive bred butterflies into the wild though I would not rule out doing so at some time in the future
The site where I do my transect, used to have Dukes, unfortunately due to, maybe!, a lack of maintenance in the past, they disappeared. The site is now, after years of hard work by the Rangers, and volunteer workers, getting back to what it should be. If some well meaning breeder, were to release a batch of Dukes there now. Then hey, the Dukes may do well, but it's going to give the site Manager, ( who has responsibility for 18 sites ) a force indication of the sites maintenance, and it's success or failure.

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Re: Large Copper

Post by eccles »

I think generally speaking if there is already an active management of a site for butterflies then the last thing the people doing that management is some well meaning person skewing their results by releasing captive butterflies. The difficulty lies in where there is nothing specific being done.

There is an active and apparently thriving colony of marsh fritillary at Hazelbury Common in Wiltshire. It's a fair bet that they were introduced as there are no other incidences of this species for many tens of miles in any direction. They don't appear to need topping up as in Priddy, being stable, or even growing in numbers. Hopefully they will remain there but they could be wiped out by parasites one day because aside from the common there are no suitable habitats nearby to act as replenishment reservoirs forming a meta-population.

The glanville fritillaries at Sand Point in Somerset are another case. The unofficial introduction several years ago may have been augmented a couple of years ago by further stocks as they looked like dying out but bounced back, or maybe they just made a comeback on their own and are now thriving. But we don't really know. It's great to see them there, but will they be there next year? No one knows becuase it isn't known for sure if the management of the micro-ecology is correct to sustain the population. Having said that, there is some evidence that they are spreading to other parts of the Point.

Unfortunately, this may be the only way we can keep many of these rare species going at all because there is no concerted action at government level to maintain metapopulations with top-up corridors to relenish populations from one site to another. This is further compounded by ill thought out and disastrous schemes to concrete over large parts of green belt in Southern England for high density housing.
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Shirley Roulston »

Could there be a list of plants that we could buy and plant for these rare species, there are wildflower farms where stock can be bought. Last year I planted 100 small plugs of Birds foot trefoil and I have the biggest patches ever now in my field and I hope that the Commom Blue butterlies will find it. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Water Dock, I've noticed that the Fritillaries are often photographed on Bracken but what are the flowers and plants that they are attracted to in the first place. I have Bracken but what should I plant to attract the Fritillaries.
After the plants and flowers have been establish, why can you not intoduce a few pairs of the butterflies from a private stock to the wild, release back into the wild where they came from. I'm refering butterflies that were in that area and climate and of course native butterflies. Not that I will but just say that when my bird' f t flowers and not a Common blue is sight why would it be wrong to place into the flowers butterflies from a private collection.
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Mark Senior »

Thanks for the responses , Shirley made the same point that I made , why is it acceptable to buy and introduce food plants into a new area but not butterflies . They are both "interfering with nature" . My view remains that in today's much fragmented countryside where natural colonisation and interchange of genes between different colonies of the same species is almost impossible then humans must lend a hand . Of course if a site is being actively managed by a warden or team then (s)he or they can do this after full consideration but as Eccles notes there are very many areas of land without active management . It is true that the site I mention may in the end prove unsuitable for Dukes but even the fact that this is proved to be the case would add something to the pool of knowledge on this species .
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Padfield »

Mark Senior wrote:It is true that the site I mention may in the end prove unsuitable for Dukes but even the fact that this is proved to be the case would add something to the pool of knowledge on this species .
Like most people, I entirely agree with your sentiments, Mark, and in general I like to see rules and regulations kept to an absolute minimum. Nevertheless, anyone serious about adding something to the pool of knowledge of a species would be best advised not to go it alone but to take advice and coordinate their efforts with the relevant local conservation bodies. Scientific knowledge comes from controlled and monitored experiments, not fragmented, anecdotal evidence, and while one isolated person in an isolated place might do no harm, the general falsification of data that would result if people went around willy nilly breeding and releasing would probably be counter-productive. This is especially true in the case of sensitive or rare species, or those at the limit of their range. Common blues may perhaps be able to take up residence in almost any patch of birds-foot trefoil with a sunny aspect, and purple hairstreaks may be able to occupy any isolated oak - that is why these species are common; but the requirements of other species (Duke of Burgundy, large blue, high brown fritillary) go well beyond mere provision of the foodplant and sufficient warmth.

In my region we are monitoring the spread of southern small white up the north arm of the Rhône Valley. I send in data for any southern small white I see, the data is collated centrally and a picture emerges which helps us to understand what might be going on here in terms of climate change and land use &c. The whole project would be messed up if someone were breeding and releasing southern small whites into what they thought were likely habitats. Maybe it wouldn't do any lasting harm and I don't propose it should be illegal - but it would be very irritating nonetheless.

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Re: Large Copper

Post by Mark Senior »

Many thanks Padfield for a well considered reply . I think it is also important to distinguish between species which are basically sedentary and may live in very scattered colonies separated from possible sites for them and species that are to some extent migratory or species which which may expand gradually as their site requirements are widespread or even common .
The deer in Richmond Park are thriving and have been isolated from other herds for several 100 years now but even so to improve the gene pool there is an occassional introduction of new animals from elsewhere in the UK . This may also be necessary to introduce stronger variety in the genes in scattered colonies of some butterfly species which can no longer occur naturally in the 21st century .
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Cotswold Cockney »

Gruditch wrote:
Mark Senior wrote:I know of a perfect site for Duke Of Burgundy's
Just because a site looks perfect for Dukes, it doesn't always follow that they will thrive there, ask the Head Warden at Bentley Wood.

Regards Gruditch
It was certainly thriving in parts of that complex in the 1960s, along with both Pearl Bordered Fritillaries. My information the best ~ that of my own eyes.
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Gruditch »

Knowing the history of the wood, I'm not surprised that they were thriving back in the 60s.
But I'm afraid, despite all the acres of what one would imagine to be perfect habitat, they are not thriving now.


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Re: Large Copper

Post by Danny »

Mark Senior wrote:Greetings to all on here , my first post so may as well make a controversial one .
Many on this thread have argued that it is wrong to release captive bred specimens of species into new or existing areas .
I would argue that it is not only not wrong to do so but that in the 21st century where suitable habitats for many species are so fragmented that it is an essential part of conserving present populations and extending the range of the rarer species to do so .
For example , I know of a perfect site for Duke Of Burgundy's , plenty of food plant , a range of South , East and North facing slopes and no Duke colony within 15 miles . The chance of colonisation by natural forces is to all intents and purposes zero . I would argue that it is would be purely beneficial to introduce captive bred stock onto this site .
Many of our rarer butterfly species now exist in well scattered colonies and unlike in say the 19th century when the range was more continous , these colonies get no new influx into the gene pool from other colonies . This will in the end lead to a weakening of the gene pool and make the colony more susceptible to extinction . The introduction of new genes from release of captive bred specimens can only lead to a stronger gene pool and a more thriving colony .
It is interesting that many who would oppose the release of captive bred specimens into new areas on the grounds of interfering with nature would see nothing wrong in planting for example kidney vetch on a new site in an attempt to attract the Small Blue . Far better IMHO to plant kidney vetch and release captive bred Small Blues .
I should add finally , that I have no connection whatsoever with the breeding of butterflies and have never released any captive bred butterflies into the wild though I would not rule out doing so at some time in the future .
Now everyone can flame away at my post .

I fail to see how crimeful it is to release say: Map/ Scarce Swallowtail/ Queen of Spain/ Large Copper...I mean what's the problem? We get more butterflies to see...is that such a disaster? The Black Veined White for example used to be fairly abundant in the UK before the motor car kicked in. How can repopulating the nation with BVW be so horrid? If a colony took off after twenty years it would simply be indiginous again. I personally agree with the poster. More insects just means more food for the birds, it'd save on feeders and everybody in this group would get rampant about the Cardinal they saw in Derbyshire last week.

Danny
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Dave McCormick »

Danny wrote:
Mark Senior wrote:Greetings to all on here , my first post so may as well make a controversial one .
Many on this thread have argued that it is wrong to release captive bred specimens of species into new or existing areas .
I would argue that it is not only not wrong to do so but that in the 21st century where suitable habitats for many species are so fragmented that it is an essential part of conserving present populations and extending the range of the rarer species to do so .
For example , I know of a perfect site for Duke Of Burgundy's , plenty of food plant , a range of South , East and North facing slopes and no Duke colony within 15 miles . The chance of colonisation by natural forces is to all intents and purposes zero . I would argue that it is would be purely beneficial to introduce captive bred stock onto this site .
Many of our rarer butterfly species now exist in well scattered colonies and unlike in say the 19th century when the range was more continous , these colonies get no new influx into the gene pool from other colonies . This will in the end lead to a weakening of the gene pool and make the colony more susceptible to extinction . The introduction of new genes from release of captive bred specimens can only lead to a stronger gene pool and a more thriving colony .
It is interesting that many who would oppose the release of captive bred specimens into new areas on the grounds of interfering with nature would see nothing wrong in planting for example kidney vetch on a new site in an attempt to attract the Small Blue . Far better IMHO to plant kidney vetch and release captive bred Small Blues .
I should add finally , that I have no connection whatsoever with the breeding of butterflies and have never released any captive bred butterflies into the wild though I would not rule out doing so at some time in the future .
Now everyone can flame away at my post .

I fail to see how crimeful it is to release say: Map/ Scarce Swallowtail/ Queen of Spain/ Large Copper...I mean what's the problem? We get more butterflies to see...is that such a disaster? The Black Veined White for example used to be fairly abundant in the UK before the motor car kicked in. How can repopulating the nation with BVW be so horrid? If a colony took off after twenty years it would simply be indiginous again. I personally agree with the poster. More insects just means more food for the birds, it'd save on feeders and everybody in this group would get rampant about the Cardinal they saw in Derbyshire last week.

Danny
Hi Danny,

I have in past had the same thinking you have, but there are many good reasons to not introduce species never native to the location or introducing more of that species:

First, will the butterfly introduced do well and eat foodplants that say, other native butterflies eat? If so, it could reduce the number of foodplants for local species that have been there and maybe reduce their numbers because of lack of food. The map being one, it feeds on nettles but local butterflies like red admiral, peacock and small tortoiseshell as well as several local moth species feed on nettles, now wouldn’t it be a shame if local butterflies became under threat by someone with your thinking, releasing butterflies like this?

Second, is it the right subspecies? Take the speckled wood it has 3 or 4 subspecies or more, some of which occur in Europe, some occur in different parts of UK. If the subspecies from France and southern Europe was introduced, it could mutate the local subspecies and maybe introduce a disease because of this, or create a new subspecies and drive the current one to extinction in that area.

Third, will the species introduced increase the number of predators such as birds that could feed on it and then go to other species in area? Introducing a species in an area could increase the bird population in that area, they have more food. With this, they could even find local insects and feed on them too, could even make them endangered or go extinct because of the number of predators that now exist because of an introduction of a new species.
Finally adding to the population. Is it wise? You must make sure the adults you have, first, have no disease that can be carried to the population your trying to add too, then it has to be exact same form and subspecies, which cannot always be certain and you have to make sure the livestock you have did not come from another area, thus reducing the population in that area just for your benefit.

People want to protect local species and sometimes introducing new species can do what I said. I am no expert, but there are reasons why you can’t just introduce a species to an area. Probably more than what I said. Some may think its ok, but you have to think long term and think about a few months or a year from now, will the species still be there and what will become of them and local species? Will predators increase? Are they disease free? Are they same subspecies/form etc...? that is in area already? Is there enough foodplants and correct habitat to sustain them?
Cheers all,
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Gruditch »

Dave McCormick wrote:just for your benefit.
They are the key words here Dave. :wink:

If it's really that important to see some foreign butterfly species, then surly a trip abroad would be a little less selfish.

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Re: Large Copper

Post by Cotswold Cockney »

Gruditch wrote:
Dave McCormick wrote:just for your benefit.
They are the key words here Dave. :wink:

If it's really that important to see some foreign butterfly species, then surly a trip abroad would be a little less selfish.

Gruditch

If you wish to see foreign butterfly species, no need to go abroad. You can observe Large Blues in the UK at several locations ~ all descending from foreign introductions although some have been granted UK passports in the meantime.

.... and just maybe, this Brit species was not quite extinct in one or two of its Cotswold localities where the alien race has since been introduced.... :roll:

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Re: Large Copper

Post by Gruditch »

I think we've done that one.

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/phpBB2/v ... f=2&t=1930

And very different from the nice, but misguided couple I met today, that were about to release a captive bred Purple Emperor into Bentley Wood ( SSSI area ).

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Re: Large Copper

Post by Matsukaze »

Going back to Mark's point, it is somewhat illogical that releasing most butterflies is frowned upon but I can release large numbers of exotic and/or selectively bred plants into the wild (or, to give it its more usual name, do some gardening).
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Re: Large Copper

Post by Gruditch »

Depends what you class as "into the wild", it is illegal to plant on a SSSI, if you delve into it, plants get more protection than butterflies in the UK.

Below is a passage from the RHS web site.

It is an offence to introduce to the wild seeds, propagules or mature plants of any Schedule 9 species. There are many other alien species which are invasive and can be detrimental to our native flora, so alien plants should never be introduced to the wild. Aquatic plants such as Canadian Pondweed Elodea canadensis and New Zealand Pygmyweed Crassula helmsii can be particularly damaging, so do not tip unwanted material from aquaria into streams or ponds. Moving even native plants about the country can be unwise. Now, the main emphasis of conservation is to maintain native plants within their natural ranges. Introductions may disturb natural patterns of distribution, which can be subtle and involve sub-species and varieties. Many plants have been introduced into the wrong places, and inappropriate, even foreign, strains have been released. There is therefore a strong presumption against casual introductions. Do not introduce seed or other living plant material to the wild unless this is part of a well organised scheme sanctioned by your local wildlife trust or botanical society, or by one of the statutory conservation organisations.


Cheers Gruditch
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