Italian Butterflies
- Pete Eeles
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Italian Butterflies
Hi all - I'm currently writing a report from the trip I took last year and will be posting species I'm not sure about in this thread. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
The first is an Erebia - but I'm not sure which species. The 2 photos are of the same individual. Taken in the Monti Sibillini mountains (in the Appenines) in northern Italy.
Cheers,
- Pete
The first is an Erebia - but I'm not sure which species. The 2 photos are of the same individual. Taken in the Monti Sibillini mountains (in the Appenines) in northern Italy.
Cheers,
- Pete
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Re: Italian Butterflies
I'd quess on E. triaria, but let's wait for Padfield...
Re: Italian Butterflies
I'd go for E.meolans.
Misha
Misha
- Roger Gibbons
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Re: Italian Butterflies
I'd go for meolans as well. It isn't triaria as there is no (aligned) upf ocellus in s6. Meolans can sometimes have an ocellus in s6 but it will not be aligned with those in s4 and s5 as it would be for triaria. This seems to be constant. Meolans does appear to occur in this region of Italy according to Tolman & Lewington and Lafranchis.
Re: Italian Butterflies
Oh well, I suppose I still need the experts.
Speaking of E. meolans - could you take a look at my two uncertain candidates for that species? The address for Genus Erebia is http://www.tyllinen.eu/Butterflies/Nymp ... htm#Erebia. Unfortunately there is no underside available, though I seem to recall that the first did not have any notable markings. Both samples are from meadows on relatively low altitude (~1200-1500m).
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Speaking of E. meolans - could you take a look at my two uncertain candidates for that species? The address for Genus Erebia is http://www.tyllinen.eu/Butterflies/Nymp ... htm#Erebia. Unfortunately there is no underside available, though I seem to recall that the first did not have any notable markings. Both samples are from meadows on relatively low altitude (~1200-1500m).
Re: Italian Butterflies
They look good to me. Excellent site by the way, and fine photos.
Misha
Misha
Re: Italian Butterflies
Thanks! Wish I could take credit for the pictures, but most of them on that page are not mine.
- Pete Eeles
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Thanks for the suggestions all. I'll put it down as Piedmont.
The next chap is, I believe, a Red Underwing Skipper (Spialia sertorius). Confirmation or otherwise would be appreciated. Again, this is the same individual.
I also had the following down as an Olive Skipper (Pyrgus serratulae).
Cheers,
- Pete
The next chap is, I believe, a Red Underwing Skipper (Spialia sertorius). Confirmation or otherwise would be appreciated. Again, this is the same individual.
I also had the following down as an Olive Skipper (Pyrgus serratulae).
Cheers,
- Pete
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Hi, Pete
Nobody else seems to be in a hurry to answer. I wonder why. You're certainly right about the first, but I think I,ll pass on the second. I don't suppose you have an underside of it?
Misha
Nobody else seems to be in a hurry to answer. I wonder why. You're certainly right about the first, but I think I,ll pass on the second. I don't suppose you have an underside of it?
Misha
- Pete Eeles
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Unfortunately not ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
And thanks!
Cheers,
- Pete
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
And thanks!
Cheers,
- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
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- Roger Gibbons
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Re erebia, I would agree with Misha that the Piedmont Ringlets (Erebia meolans) on Juha's page are indeed that. Juha, I think your two “uncertain” E. triaria are that, for the aligned ocellus reasons mentioned above. I also think that your E. aethiops is correctly identified as such, as the dark sex brand is quite visible and the red upf postdiscal band shows a slight constriction at s3.
Meolans seems quite variable in that the red upf postdiscal band can be solid and quite wide, but can also be broken at the veins in a way that looks quite different. It tends to be very black when fresh, especially on the unh but tends to lose this after a while and become dark brown. This photo (12202) had me fooled last summer as I had rashly and too readily assumed that it was meolans from the strong red upf band and the large bright ocelli and I put it up on my meolans page. It was exceedingly common in the Valais in Switzerland. However, I had overlooked the fact that the fringes were chequered and this ruled out meolans and meant that it had to be Large Ringlet (E. euryale) as only this and Arran Brown (E. ligea) have chequered fringes and ligea is much larger (showing what a daft name the English name is). In fact, I was forced to conclude that all the meolans I thought I had seen were in fact euryale and further on checking my records that I had only ever seen meolans in the Pyrenees.
This euryale is of the form adyte which is VERY different from the nominate form which has typically very small upf ocelli, often blind (i.e. no white pupils) although this form strangely does not get a mention in the Lafranchis ID book. The underside of adyte is largely unmarked compared to the strongly dentate (tooth-shaped) white unh mark of the nominate form, which is normally shown in the books as the characteristic feature. I feel this is potentially misleading.
Re pyrgus, Misha you are right in that there is not usually a rush to offer pyrgus ID advice. You obviously know this area well if you comment that an underside view would be far more helpful. Perversely, this may have been easier to ID in the field than from a photo – did it look significantly larger than your average pyrgus? If it did, Large Grizzled Skipper (Pyrgus alveus) is a distinct possibility. I rather doubt that it is Olive Skipper (P. serratulae) as the uph marking just look a little too strong, even though alveus is quite lightly marked too. I doubt Oberthur’s GS (P. armoricanus) as the uph is usually more clearly marked, given that it is obviously a male. For much the same reason, I would be inclined to rule out Rosy GS (P. onopordi). This leaves Carline GS (P. carlinae) which could be a possibility but doesn’t occur in Italy, so that’s easy. Altitude information is often very helpful as it could eliminate several contenders and narrow the field.
Incidentally, check out the Italian distribution of serratulae in Tolman & Lewington (occurs in a small region of central Italy) and Lafranchis (occurs in the whole of the country)!!! Equally, Lafranchis does not make reference to the alveus higher-altitude form centralhispaniae, which is very different to the nominate form in that it is much more heavily marked. I guess you can’t cover everything in one small field guide, but this does seem a major omission.
Alveus does occur in this region of Italy and this is what I would go for, if forced to guess. The truth is that no-one really knows without examination of the genitalia.
Guy must be away. Otherwise I doubt he could resist some head-scratching erebia and pyrgus questions.![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Meolans seems quite variable in that the red upf postdiscal band can be solid and quite wide, but can also be broken at the veins in a way that looks quite different. It tends to be very black when fresh, especially on the unh but tends to lose this after a while and become dark brown. This photo (12202) had me fooled last summer as I had rashly and too readily assumed that it was meolans from the strong red upf band and the large bright ocelli and I put it up on my meolans page. It was exceedingly common in the Valais in Switzerland. However, I had overlooked the fact that the fringes were chequered and this ruled out meolans and meant that it had to be Large Ringlet (E. euryale) as only this and Arran Brown (E. ligea) have chequered fringes and ligea is much larger (showing what a daft name the English name is). In fact, I was forced to conclude that all the meolans I thought I had seen were in fact euryale and further on checking my records that I had only ever seen meolans in the Pyrenees.
This euryale is of the form adyte which is VERY different from the nominate form which has typically very small upf ocelli, often blind (i.e. no white pupils) although this form strangely does not get a mention in the Lafranchis ID book. The underside of adyte is largely unmarked compared to the strongly dentate (tooth-shaped) white unh mark of the nominate form, which is normally shown in the books as the characteristic feature. I feel this is potentially misleading.
Re pyrgus, Misha you are right in that there is not usually a rush to offer pyrgus ID advice. You obviously know this area well if you comment that an underside view would be far more helpful. Perversely, this may have been easier to ID in the field than from a photo – did it look significantly larger than your average pyrgus? If it did, Large Grizzled Skipper (Pyrgus alveus) is a distinct possibility. I rather doubt that it is Olive Skipper (P. serratulae) as the uph marking just look a little too strong, even though alveus is quite lightly marked too. I doubt Oberthur’s GS (P. armoricanus) as the uph is usually more clearly marked, given that it is obviously a male. For much the same reason, I would be inclined to rule out Rosy GS (P. onopordi). This leaves Carline GS (P. carlinae) which could be a possibility but doesn’t occur in Italy, so that’s easy. Altitude information is often very helpful as it could eliminate several contenders and narrow the field.
Incidentally, check out the Italian distribution of serratulae in Tolman & Lewington (occurs in a small region of central Italy) and Lafranchis (occurs in the whole of the country)!!! Equally, Lafranchis does not make reference to the alveus higher-altitude form centralhispaniae, which is very different to the nominate form in that it is much more heavily marked. I guess you can’t cover everything in one small field guide, but this does seem a major omission.
Alveus does occur in this region of Italy and this is what I would go for, if forced to guess. The truth is that no-one really knows without examination of the genitalia.
Guy must be away. Otherwise I doubt he could resist some head-scratching erebia and pyrgus questions.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Re: Italian Butterflies
The skipper is deja vu for me... I have these 2 pics, same spec. from high Alps near Bourg St Maurice early Jul 07.... I put them down as onopordi but are they same as Pete's?? again... no undersides!
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/07Ponopordi0207Beaufortpass01.jpg)
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/07Ponopordi0207BeaufortPass1.jpg)
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/07Ponopordi0207Beaufortpass01.jpg)
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/07Ponopordi0207BeaufortPass1.jpg)
Re: Italian Butterflies
Thanks. The comments will be gone in the next update.Roger Gibbons wrote:Re erebia, I would agree with Misha that the Piedmont Ringlets (Erebia meolans) on Juha's page are indeed that. Juha, I think your two “uncertain” E. triaria are that, for the aligned ocellus reasons mentioned above. I also think that your E. aethiops is correctly identified as such, as the dark sex brand is quite visible and the red upf postdiscal band shows a slight constriction at s3.
- Pete Eeles
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Re: Italian Butterflies
And another! Is this critter a Spotted Fritillary or Lesser Spotted Fritillary?
Thx again!
Cheers,
- Pete
Thx again!
Cheers,
- Pete
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Re: Italian Butterflies
I'd say that is M. didyma. And this time I actually think I know it. ![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
- Padfield
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Sorry - I haven't been away, just very busy with recently with conferences and deadlines so I missed this fascinating diversion from the endless snow out here.
Interesting Erebia! I've certainly never seen meolans like that - so dark, and with so little red on the hindwing - but in the end I agree with all of you that that must be what it is. I've never seen meolans in Italy, only in Spain and Switzerland.
I also agree with Roger's analysis of the Pyrgus. For me, only alveus and armoricanus are real possibilities and I would go for alveus - perhaps centralitaliae. Most classic features of alveus are visible here. It seems too well marked for serratulae and has a quite different jizz from any male onopordi I've seen. Here's a group of male onopordi:
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2008/onopordi086.jpg)
As JKT says, the final frit does look spot on for spot frit and on that view alone I can see no reason for proposing lesser spotted. Again, an underside would make it easier to judge for certain.
The sun did, in fact, shine on CH yesterday and the first large tortoiseshells took to the air. Everything is a few weeks behind on recent years, though.
Guy
Interesting Erebia! I've certainly never seen meolans like that - so dark, and with so little red on the hindwing - but in the end I agree with all of you that that must be what it is. I've never seen meolans in Italy, only in Spain and Switzerland.
I also agree with Roger's analysis of the Pyrgus. For me, only alveus and armoricanus are real possibilities and I would go for alveus - perhaps centralitaliae. Most classic features of alveus are visible here. It seems too well marked for serratulae and has a quite different jizz from any male onopordi I've seen. Here's a group of male onopordi:
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2008/onopordi086.jpg)
As JKT says, the final frit does look spot on for spot frit and on that view alone I can see no reason for proposing lesser spotted. Again, an underside would make it easier to judge for certain.
The sun did, in fact, shine on CH yesterday and the first large tortoiseshells took to the air. Everything is a few weeks behind on recent years, though.
Guy
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- Padfield
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Paul - your skipper looks distinctly different from Pete's to me, but I can still see the possibility of it being alveus, nominate form. Was it big? The pale suffusion on the forewing is unlike sertorius, in my experience, but my experience of that species is rather limited. Again, it is quite unlike my local rosy grizzlies.
Guy
EDIT: When I wrote 'sertorius' in the above I meant 'serratulae' as Roger correctly guessed. Sorry for the confusion!!
Guy
EDIT: When I wrote 'sertorius' in the above I meant 'serratulae' as Roger correctly guessed. Sorry for the confusion!!
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- Roger Gibbons
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Re: Italian Butterflies
I’d tend agree that Paul’s are probably both alveus. Not with any conviction at all, but because there are more reasons why-not for the other contenders. Higgins & Riley, usually the definitive and trusted source is not very specific about the distribution of centralhispaniae in France (they also describe centralitaliae although I suspect the former term is now used to denote either), so does anyone have more definitive information? Is it simply an altitude issue, and, if so, what is the “cut-off”? Can the nominate and centralhispaniae forms fly together (is the latter a subspecies or a form)?
I recently went on the BC EIG trip to the Natural History Museum archives with one objective being to study the pyrgus archives, which was scheduled for after lunch. Not that I relish looking at set specimens, but as they exist they might as well be used for constructive purposes. I was hoping to answer some questions about several pyrgus species and foulquieri in particular which I may possibly have seen, and this has been the subject of debate elsewhere. However, after a long pub lunch and a long (and fascinating) guided tour, we were out of time. It is planned to repeat this visit next year, so anyone who is interested, please note.
Guy, presumably you meant serratulae rather than sertorius?
I recently went on the BC EIG trip to the Natural History Museum archives with one objective being to study the pyrgus archives, which was scheduled for after lunch. Not that I relish looking at set specimens, but as they exist they might as well be used for constructive purposes. I was hoping to answer some questions about several pyrgus species and foulquieri in particular which I may possibly have seen, and this has been the subject of debate elsewhere. However, after a long pub lunch and a long (and fascinating) guided tour, we were out of time. It is planned to repeat this visit next year, so anyone who is interested, please note.
Guy, presumably you meant serratulae rather than sertorius?
Re: Italian Butterflies
Yep it was big... happy to go with alveus, I thought it looked just like Pete's... but I am "Skipper blind"
- Pete Eeles
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Re: Italian Butterflies
Thanks for your help, everyone ... it's been absolutely brilliant! I'm about half way through writing the report (currently 22 pages!). Here's another I'd appreciate a view on - I have a niggling suspicion that this is a Lulworth Skipper - but not sure why
I think it might simply be the crinkled wing - which isn't typical of a Small Skipper.
Thx again!
Cheers,
- Pete
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Thx again!
Cheers,
- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
British & Irish Butterflies Rarities: http://www.butterflyrarities.com
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