Black Veined Whites?

[Steve J S]

Hi, my daughter, wife and I spotted these in Northumberland, am I correct that they are Black Veined Whites? If they are how rare is this so far north, if not what are they?

[Wurzel]

At first I wondered if it was a strongly marked Green-veined but it looks like a Black-veined White to me. They are 'extinct' in the UK but a couple have been spotted recently; one in Kent and another in Surrey. The problem of unauthorised releases makes determining if these are wild vagrants trickier but either way still a lovely butterfly to see, and one I keep missing out on

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[millerd]

I'm going to stick my neck out (and disagree with Wurzel!) and say that they are male Green-veined Whites, Steve.

GVW can sometimes be heavily marked like this, and I think Black-veined lack the blackish wing tips. An underside would clinch it!

Cheers,

Dave

[millerd]

I've just looked at the UKB species page for Black-veined White, and they look quite different to these individuals. This is especially so as I think these are males, and male BVW have a distinctive forewing mark that these butterflies lack.
https://ukbutterflies.co.uk/photo_album ... 323675.jpg

I lack experience of the actual species, so base this opinion on comparing photos only - professional opinions welcome!

Dave

[David M]

It's not a Black Veined White. Crataegi has a very distinctive marking at the outer edge of the cell (marked in red) which is lacking in the butterfly above:

[Allan.W.]

Talking of Black veined Whites .........................take a look at Kent Butterflies facebook page ,for anyone interested .
Allan.W.

[millerd]

Talking of Black veined Whites .........................take a look at Kent Butterflies facebook page ,for anyone interested .
Allan.W.

Looking at that Facebook page, I see from the comments that one has apparently turned up at Hutchinson's Bank as well.

Dave

[MrSp0ck]

At least 3 different ones have turned up at Hutchinsons Bank since Sunday in ones and twos over a few days not all at once, all are fresh too, and have been seen around the same few hawthorn bushes, with ones turning up in several places in Kent and Hampshire too this last week. I was on site both days and didnt see any, along with a lot of other people there at the time. I only found out yesterday that they had been seen, and saw one at a distance late this afternoon. I will be looking tomorrow with one of the finders to study the location. With Crimson Speckled moths last summer turning up all over southern england and striped hawks last year and this year, there has been migration of species over a wide area. The other possible answer is the same route as the Oak processionary Moth, via fruit trees imported to garden centres from Europe. A last years larval web cannot be discounted too if there are quite a few seen over the next couple of weeks. If its widespread im sure other sightings will come to light. I hope our lovely site is not trashed more with visitors, we have been busy the last week or so as it is. There has also been other migrants seen on site this last week or so Painted Lady, Clouded Yellow, Silver Y, Red Admiral. [we hardly get double figures of Red Admirals unless they are migrants] Large Tortoiseshell.

[MrSp0ck]

I think the original posts are Green-veined Whites though.

[Chris L]

It's not a Black Veined White. Crataegi has a very distinctive marking at the outer edge of the cell (marked in red) which is lacking in the butterfly above:

Inked4BVWhite(1).jpg

I am a little bit in awe of you being able to pick out this little bit of detail for the identification David. I aspire to be able to do this one day.

[David M]

I've seen at least 10,000 of them over the years, Otep. I know a Black Veined White when I see one.

[Wurzel]

Having never seen one and just relying on the internet is obviously not conducive to making IDs That being said it is a stringing looking butterfly - I’ve never seen a Green-veined white with veined so clearly marked before , they go across the whole world wing

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[MrSp0ck]

Todays shots from Hutchinsons Bank.

[Jack Harrison]

Regardless of origin, it is a stunning butterfly with beautiful photographs.

Jack

[David M]

Todays shots from Hutchinsons Bank.

Now that's a Black Veined White, Sp0ck.

Not difficult when you know what you're looking at.

[MrSp0ck]

They seem to be hatching from a hawthorn clump on part of the reserve, before spreading out later in the day. A fresh male and female this morning, the male was still joining its tongue.

[Wurzel]

Interesting shots Mr Spock the fifth one in particular as looks quite similar to the one at the start of the post (which is a Green-veined White, not saying it's not, I've learnt my lesson ) as the distinctive marking isn't strongly marked

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[Lawts]

Suggestion on Twitter that someone is releasing them. Circa 10 seen in total with 3 together at Incombe Hole and Steps Hill respectively, in addition to those at Hutchinson's Bank.

[David M]

Suggestion on Twitter that someone is releasing them.

More than likely.

[millerd]

Suggestion on Twitter that someone is releasing them. Circa 10 seen in total with 3 together at Incombe Hole and Steps Hill respectively, in addition to those at Hutchinson's Bank.

Hmm. Steps Hill is (perhaps not coincidentally) the site of a release of Marsh Fritillaries a couple of years back. It does make you wonder!

Dave