October 2008 competition Behaviour

[Susie]

I don't mind what the rules are as long as they are clear.

However, my personal opinion is that a "single image" should mean a single shot. If this isn't the case then it should be made clear. Obviously minor photograph manipulation is also allowed, where is the line drawn on this?

[eccles]

Superimposed images are post processed to look like something they are not. I see no similarity with sequential shots that show behaviour, so would accept the latter but not the former. But as Gary suggests, let them all stand and attract votes on their merits as decent images that demonstrate the topic, or otherwise.

[NickB]

This is pretty unequivocal as rule for "manipulation"....

BBC Country File Rules:
No 4:

"Images may be digitally enhanced to remove spots or scratches, but not manipulated. Entrants can enhance the picture to make it brighter, clearer etc, but not manipulate the content. BBC Countryfile and the judges reserve the right to exclude any image they believe may have been excessively treated so as to alter its authenticity. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/program ... ules.shtml

N
This makes a distinction between, as we know, a shot spoiled by background stems, leaves, etc, which has had these items digitally removed or dodged-out to make a nicely-framed shot and the unmanipulated, nicely-framed shot which has no distracting clutter in the first place, which is so difficult to do in the field. To my mind, it is a lazy way to "success" to manipulate images after the event; getting it right in the first place is surely what we are all aiming for in butterfly photography, is it not? It certainly makes for a more testing photographic experience to capture things as they are, not how we would like them to have been, when we get home!

In that sense, there is a clear distinction between the two and one which I believe Country File is trying to make. If people feel that this means 2 competitions......

[JKT]

That just leaves HDR and focus stacking...

[NickB]

That just leaves HDR and focus stacking...

Focus-stacking is use of multiple images - out, by the rule of addition...
..... and HDR? Adjusting the relative exposure on various parts of the image? (Active D-Lighting from Nikon?) In - adjusting the image properties
any more?
Edit:
HDR -
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutori ... -range.htm

Focus-stacking -
http://www.dynaxdigital.com/index.php?page=10

[Gruditch]

Here we go again !.

This is a fun competition run on a casual basis, by a forum community, I'm not going to sit in sole judgement every month, as to who I should or should not exclude, because of what I guess they may, or may not of done, to their entry.

As for having two competitions, I can hear it now, " you done this, you done that, you should be in that comp". Lets just leave things as they are, and enjoy it.

Gruditch

[NickB]

OK!

[Gruditch]

Gruditch

[FISHiEE]

In response to the original question, IMO it should be single images as the rules state and I shall be voting accordingly. ie I won't vote for the compositions.

I don't know if the rules should be amended to specifically allow/disallow them as maybe not everyone shares my opinion, but I don't recall ever seeing a composite image entered in a natural history competition I've taken part in before. I think generally they would be frowned upon.

I believe the two composite images posted would show just as much relevance to the theme if just a single shot of the sequence was posted.

[Dave McCormick]

So if I managed to get a shot of a behaviour with my camera on composite mode and managed to get 3 or 4 shots in one shot with the camera without manipulating the pic, would that count as an image I could use? It would not be two sepetate pics joined together on computer.

Well the way I see the competition:

Its fun, a chance to see if your pic will be any good and to see others. Image should not be manipulated so the shot does not look like the actual creature anymore for example:

A butterfly cut and pasted onto a flower on another pic would be "fake" as its not real, the butterfly is superimposed over another image, therefore fake. SImilar things should not be encouraged or accepted IMO.

Also I disagree with manipulating an image to "repair" things like a bit of a hole in a wing, or whatever. Also I would not digitally remove a flower of object from pic unless it was cropped out.

[FISHiEE]

Hi Dave,

I'm not familiar with 'composite mode' as to what that does exactly, but sounds from the way you describe like it creates a single image from several which to my mind would break the rules.

As for the manipulation etc. there is nothing specifically stated in the rules so I guess it is open to do whatever we want in that respect. I for one would have no issues in, cloning out twigs, leaves etc. (within reason) and have done so in the past, if the rules do not say anything against it. I think patching up damaged wings is a bit much, and definitely sticking a butterfly from one image onto a flower from another is a no-no, but that's just me. I know a lot of Natural History cops state no manipulation past contrast/brightness/levels and sharpening is allowed and I would abide by those rules if they applied to any comp I entered. I am not sure how easy it would be to prove such manipulation has neot been applied. Some comps do state they may ask for the original RAW file as proof in any dispute.

At the end of the day it's a comp that's meant to be just a bit of fun. If you start intorducing too many rules it's not longer a bit of fun as it was intended to be.

I see no problems really with the current rules in that respect. If people don't like what they see be it a composite image, photoshopped to buggery or whatever they just don't vote for it. If we're all complying with the same rules there is no real issue imo.

You can argue that 'single image' is a bit vague in this modern digital age. A composite of 3 images or whatever can be made into a single .jpg image file for example. By the sounds of it in camera or in photoshop. To my mind that is a breaking of the rules, but others may see it as ok. If there were big prizes at the end of it maybe we should dispute the rules, but there isn't so let's not. Let's just continue with the fun competition this started out as.

Those that don't like playing here can play somewhere else

[Jack Harrison]

It might have been noticed that I have changed my entry.

This was done for one reason and one reason only - I preferred the replacement picture. I had simply forgotten about it until I was reviewing some of the year's photos.

Jack

[m_galathea]

I noticed Jack. It's a good shot too. I also noticed the particularly bold marking on the hindwing of the meadow brown - nice find!
Alexander

[Gruditch]

Hello, no comments till after voting

Gruditch

[Dave McCormick]

If anyone wants to know how composite mode works here is my explination:

I sometimes use my Samsung Digimax L85 and Composite shot allows you to divide a shooting scene into 2-4 segments and save them into a single file. So its not the same way as others do it by taking three seperate shots, each taken in a seperate file and put together into one shot on computer. I have an example, I took this shot on my camera just now, it was not edited or manipulated on computer (just resized), its my cat Tiny sleeping:



When I was taking the pic on composite mode, you take the pic on the top left first, then top right, then bottom left then bottom right and press shutter again to save image.

And yes, it is a bit of fun, and things should not get too serious with these things.

[FISHiEE]

Ah ok as I thought. So the camera combines the 4 images into one in the same way you'd do it on a computer.

I had never heard of such a feature before.