The Kackar

[Benjamin]

I thought I’d do a trip report (of sorts) for probably my favourite place to go butterflying - the Kackar Mountains of NE Turkey.

The Kackar Mountains are wild and beautiful and as with the very best pockets of Eastern Europe, to walk through villages and up into mountain pastures and further still into wild alpine flower meadows is close enough to time travel to engender, I would imagine, all the same emotion for us Western European butterfly enthusiasts, as might the real thing.

But these things are subjective. There are countless wonderful destinations for butterflying around Europe and it is always my aim when travelling about to appreciate each one in its own right. I can also well imagine enthusiasts having just as fulfilling a butterfly experience staying in the UK and getting to know their own local hotspot, or even garden, in a way that could never be achieved on foreign trips. So I’m definitely not saying everyone MUST travel to see butterflies and certainly not that everyone must travel to the Kackars, but just that for me it has been the place that has delivered butterflying experiences on a different level to all the others.

I think the magic for me is that although I worked with tropical species for many years I’m primarily an enthusiast of European butterflies, but one that readily concedes that there’s no excitement quite like exploring new or under recorded areas. Most of Europe is so well studied these days that that kind of adventure is exceptionally hard to find - at least in the sense that I mean. It’s true that I could quite happily spend the rest of my days in a butterfly rich alpine valley, but with the occasional exception I’d know what species I’d see there, and when they’d be encountered. The real magic of moving that bit further east, is that while the bulk of the familiar European species are retained, there is the added possibility of eastern species at the western edge of their range (especially true of the Lycaenids - my favourite family). When you combine this with valleys and mountains that are rarely visited the possibilities become overwhelmingly exciting and the daily outings are infused with a genuine sense of adventure.

The combined total of species resident in the two provinces we visit (Erzurum and Artvin) is well over 200, and on any particular trip we expect to encounter in the region of 150 of these.

I’ll divide the report up into three distinct sections based upon the trip that we (Greenwings) run there every year.

The first section will cover the Erzurum area including the Palandoken mountains and Gungormez valley. The second and third sections will cover the areas around our two main bases further north in the southern Kackar Mountains - firstly at Barhal, and then at Olgunlar.

The purpose of this effort is to give a general flavour of the area, and as such just a selection of species from the different regions will be presented.

[Benjamin]

Section 1 - Erzurum Province

This section will cover a variety of habitats that we visit in Erzurum Province. We travel for several hours across this region when transiting between our arrival point at Erzurum Airport and our first main base 100 miles to the north in the Kackar Mountains. I will focus on a few key sites that we visit and mention just a selection of the many species that we encounter.

We fly into Istanbul and catch an internal flight to Erzurum in eastern Anatolia. Erzurum sits at an elevation of 1950m on a vast fertile plain surrounded by high mountains. Immediately to the south lies the Palandoken range, and to the north a series of ranges gradually build into the Kackar Mountains - the central area of the Pontic Alps at the western edge of the Lesser Caucasus.

The aim is usually to head north into the Kackar soon after arrival, but as we often travel through the night, a day spent locally is a sensible option to allow everyone to refresh and ease themselves into the trip. Staying the first night at a ski lodge on Mount Palandoken enables easy exploration of the steppe and mountain steppe habitat to be found on the doorstep.

Walking out of the hotel the species list starts to build very quickly, but in this habitat numbers are not as overwhelming as they are later in the trip, so it offers a good opportunity for guests to brush off the cobwebs and reacquaint themselves with some familiar European species, while adding just a few that are likely to be completely new. The list should grow to around 50 species relatively easily - highlights including Hungarian and Yellow-banded skippers, Pontic and Aedon blues, Cardinal, Marbled and Twin-spot fritillaries, Large Tortoiseshell and Russian Heath.

Aedon Blue is frequently encountered throughout the trip, but the hillside directly outside the ski lodge is a particularly good site to observe them with their foodplant (Cicer sp.) growing at the base of the loose scree that characterises some of the slopes in the area.

I should just mention (reminded as I now struggle to find some half reasonable photos) that for me photography on these trips is all about documenting the species we encounter - it’s record shots all the way! Occasionally I get an opportunity to attempt some better shots, but with so much going on this always seems to be at the potential cost of missing something interesting around the corner, so I tend to go for quantity over quality. This is very different to my approach on home soil, but with so many species to deal with in such a short space of time, the camera just becomes a means by which to gather data for winter learning/analysis. Also of course I have to give all the best photo opportunities to the guests, so my photography tends to be from some distance over the shoulder of someone better placed. Enough excuses? Some photos then…..

Aedon Blue - female

Aedon Blue - male

Uppersides (Aedon the largest)

For size - male Aedon puddling with Anatolian Zephyrs

Pontic Blue

Pontic Blue

[Benjamin]

About 20 miles north of Erzurum lies the small village of Gungormez, and for us, this is undoubtedly the highlight of the area. Of course there are many of these small villages in similar valleys scattered throughout the region, but Gungormez is the one we know, and it never disappoints. The cattle-grazed surrounding hillsides provide the perfect breeding ground for a wide variety of species, and the trickling streams that work their way to the valley bottom by cutting through dung soaked village paths offer superb congregations of mud puddling butterflies.

The general area around here is characterised by long cold winters with extensive snow followed by hot, dry summers. As such the butterfly season is very condensed, and after the explosive spring, the area soon becomes semi-arid with the last trickling snow melt streams creating the only lasting wet flushes in the landscape.

The village itself is very rustic with cow dung apparently being put to excellent use for almost any building task. Used as a winter fuel it is also piled high at various points around the village. The villagers, as usual in these areas, are very friendly and always welcome us back enthusiastically.

Butterflies in this area are exceptional, not only in terms of sheer numbers puddling, but also in terms of the species assemblages on offer. Alongside a trickle of water crossing a path we can easily find specialities such as Odd-spot Blue, Eastern Brown Argus, Iphigenia Blue, Meleager’s Blue, Aedon Blue, Anatolian Zephyr Blue, Loew’s Blue, puddling alongside scores of Silver-studded/Idas Blues and many other more familiar Lycaenid species.

This line continued up a slope for 10m

Loew’s Blue a particular highlight of the area - seen here with an open winged Eastern Brown Argus

Likewise Odd-spot Blue

Scarce Tortoiseshell, Balkan Marbled White and Sandy Grizzled Skipper

The focus here is certainly the mud puddling, but butterflies are everywhere and other highlights include Cardinal, Niobe and Twin-Spot fritillaries, Scarce Tortoiseshell, Rebel’s and Gerhard’s Black Hairstreaks, Yellow-Banded and Sandy Grizzled Skippers, and Balkan and Esper’s Marbled Whites.

Cardinal

Cardinal

Rebel’s and Gerhard’s Black Hairstreak

Courting Purple-shot Coppers

Taking an interest in our activities a local man once pointed me in the direction of the surrounding mountains. We didn’t have a language in common but ‘Kelebek? Up there!’ seemed to be his tantalising advice. Almost as if this incredible spectacle before us would pale into insignificance compared with the riches to be found a few hours further up the valley. Who knows what he might have been referring to - perhaps there does exist a hot spot unlike anything we’ve seen before, or perhaps there are just some hill-topping swallowtails that this gentleman assumes would easily trump these pesky little blues. One day I’ll find out, and if I have to stay in a house held together with dung to do it then so much the better.

[Benjamin]

Having completed our day at Gungormez (honestly I could spend a decade there), we head north along the D950. We could reach our destination in the Kackar with 4 hours of driving but we break up the journey with several stops along the way. The road follows one of the Coruh tributaries passing first through a landscape of rolling hills as we drop down from the Erzurum plateau before becoming much more spectacular as the valley becomes increasingly steep sided with cuttings exposing the complicated underlying geology in dramatic fashion.

Actually I don’t seem to have any photos of the spectacularly exposed folds and faults of the region - good job this isn’t a geology forum….

These are typical transit day stops where any kind of pull-in that offers some form of roadside habitat is a potential target. Some of these are more picturesque than others, with lovely stops in the shadow of a castle and next to a waterfall mixed in with stops along scratty slivers of rubbish-strewn waste ground. Remarkably these tiny pockets of land are often inhabited, with the presumably undocumented residents living in ramshackle accommodation and making use of the river to irrigate the small pockets of land that they occupy. It isn’t immediately obvious where waste ground becomes a life sustaining plot, so we have to be careful to respect this way of life and explore these areas with care and consideration.

Waterfall at Tortum

Naturally the habitat varies along the length of this route, but generally the valley is hot and dry, with just the river flowing along the valley floor producing pockets of lush vegetation. The steep sided rocky mountains appear barren from a distance, but closer exploration reveals a wide variety of flora, with the numerous Acantholimon, Astragalus and Onobrychis species being of particular interest to us.

These stops are brief, even by tour standards, and as a result we can never be too sure what we might find. We never really get to grips with any of them, and while it can be frustrating that we can’t promise to track down species that we have encountered at these sites previously, we also have the best opportunities on the entire trip to add species to the tour list for the very first time (i.e. unseen on previous trips). As such these stops can be particularly manic and result in many guest queries to be worked through over beers in the evening. Although exciting, these stops have the potential to leave guests frustrated, as inevitably people find different species and there is never time to regroup and track down the highlights that are revealed when back on the bus. This frustration is exacerbated by the knowledge that as we are only passing through these areas, we will only have one more chance at these sites on our return transit day, and again the stops will be brief and manic. Unfortunately this is just the nature of transit day stops, and it is only on these days that we will operate in this way. Once we are settled at either of our two main bases we will spend several days exploring the local valleys, and we can make sure that everyone has ample opportunity to spend time with all the species that we encounter there.

The list of species on these days is long, but some of the highlights include Powdered Brimstone, Lesser Fiery Copper, Fiery Copper, Blue-spot Hairstreak, Little Tiger Blue, False Chalkhill Blue, Poseidon Blue, Hopffer’s Blue, Merhaba Blue, Reverdin’s Blue, Meleager’s Blue, Grass Jewel, White-bordered Grayling, Eastern Grayling, Eastern Rock Grayling, Amasian Satyr, Orange Hermit and Ionian Emperor.

Fiery Copper

A personal favourite - Hopffer’s Blue

Little Tiger Blue

Little Tiger Blue

Short-tailed, Blue-spot Hairstreak, Eastern Baton and False Chalkhill

Mating False Chalkhill Blues being hassled by Adonis Blue

Hopffer’s - male, Merhaba, Reverdin’s and Hopffer’s - female

Balkan Marbled White

White-bordered Grayling

Amasian Satyr, Eastern Grayling, Eastern Rock Grayling and Orange Hermit

Poseidon Blue

Southern White Admiral

Distant Ionian Emperor - better views later….

Lesser Fiery Coppers, Anomalous Blue and Small Copper (biggest one i’ve ever seen!)

By the time we reach our first real base in Barhal our species list is already over 100. Of course the list grows more slowly with each passing day, but we are now in the southern Kackar Mountains, a quite different environment of forested valleys, small villages and mountain pastures, and we have time to discover at leisure the wonderful array of species that await us in each new valley we explore. I will cover this area in section 2…….

[petesmith]

Fantastic, mouth-watering stuff! Some absolute belters there, especially on the Lycaenid front. Looking forward to the next installment, and seriously contemplating a trip out there myself in the not too distant...

[Padfield]

I've just spent nearly an hour examining all these wonderful butterflies - and I was supposed to be getting a super early night! The Lycaenids are brilliant, especially all the ex-Agrodiaetus species. You do yourself down - these 'record shots' really bring the butterflies to life. The only shot I don't like is the very first, with the beasts of burden. That is why I hate visiting countries like this. But the butterflies themselves are to die for.

Guy

[David M]

It is indeed a precious place, Ben, and many thanks for posting these images to give us a feel for what it looks like. As you say, the nearest thing to going back in time before heavy machinery took over from more rustic means of managing the landscape.

It's a real melting pot from a butterfly perspective, being at a convergence point for species at their eastern/western limit. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing more, especially the Ionian Emperor.

[selbypaul]

Hi Ben
Thanks so much for posting such a detailed and vivid description of the trip(s) to that very special area. I certainly intend to visit the area some day, albeit my focus is on Europe currently.

Are your trips run by a company and if so, which one?
Best Wishes
Paul

[Benjamin]

I’m glad it’s of interest guys. Indeed the excitement really lies with the lycaenids, and as as I trawl through my photos of several trips I’m reminded just how much I focus on them! I’m struggling to find pictures of many of the species in different families that I’d like to represent. As mentioned already my modus operandi is to take record shots, and gather images of species that I need to spend time on over winter. As such many of the easily recognisable fritillaries, for example, are poorly represented - this despite the lush wooded valleys (covered in the next section) being alive with them! Silver-washed, Marbled, Lesser Marbled, Heath, False Heath and Glanville are always very common but you wouldn’t think so reading this report. Anyway - it’s impossible to cover everything……

These trips are all through Greenwings, Paul.

[Benjamin]

Section 2 - Barhal and surrounding valleys.

Our first base is situated on the southern slopes of the Kackar. Here the humid beech forests of the northern Black Sea slopes give way to mixed forests dominated by pine or scrubby oak. In this zone the surroundings are remarkably variable with apparently subtle changes in aspect/altitude giving rise to quite different habitat types. This is particularly noticeable when ascending the local valleys by bus, where the continuous gain in altitude coupled with the regular twists and turns of the valley gives a sense that we are passing through apparently different habitat types at almost every turn.

Barhal is a small village situated along a lush wooded valley, where small holdings give rise to an environment of hay meadows and orchards. The river that flows along the valley floor irrigates the adjacent plots, and is bordered by lush vegetation - particularly striking are the large sections of the herbaceous dwarf elder (Sambucus ebulus) which prove to be a magnet for butterflies of many species.

Many Sooty Coppers

Purple Shot

Scarce

Silver-washed f.valezina

Dark Green, High Brown and Silver-washed Fritillaries

Sloe and Ilex Hairstreaks

Green (just), Purple and Brown Hairstreaks

Our pension is of the traditional wooden chalet style, with several connected structures being used for hay storage and bee keeping. The valley sides here are steep, and being set back from the road also necessitates a considerable increase in elevation. Unusually, and luckily for us, our accommodation is blessed with a steep access road so our bus can bring us most of the way, and a traditional pulley system delivers our luggage the final way to our rooms. For those feeling particularly fit there is the option of a steep set of steps running from the road to the terrace where we will have our meals - a good choice for anyone who feels they haven’t yet earned the ice cold beers that await us each evening.

From our base at Barhal we take daily trips to explore the local valleys. At lower altitudes amongst the lush vegetation we encounter impressive numbers of fritillaries, coppers and hairstreaks. Scarce Swallowtails are common around the orchards, various pierid species congregate in large groups on damp ground and some familiar vanessids add character and a splash of colour. Less common but always possible in these areas are Ionian Emperor and Camberwell Beauty.

Scarce Swallowtail

Comma, Small Tortoiseshell, Red Admiral, Southern Comma

GVW, Small White, Southern Small White and Wood White

Ionian Emperor

(Splitting this post for ease…….)

[Benjamin]

As we ascend we encounter huge congregations of mud puddling blues, with Meleager’s, Eros, Aedon, Anatolian Zephyr, Silver-studded, Idas, Damon, Iphigenia and Ripart’s Anomalous being particularly common.

The number of species is staggering, due in part to the diversity of habitat found here, but also due to the condensed nature of the season (especially at altitude) - demonstrated most remarkably by the recording of both Green and Brown Hairstreaks on the same day. This abundance and diversity is why this area is so special so it’s hard to pick out any particular ‘highlights’. As such I’ve put together a collection of habitat and species pics that should give a sense of the general area.

Spring species holding on - Eastern Orange Tip, Green Hairstreak, Chequered Blue, PBF

Caucasian Spotted Fritillary

Lesser Spotted Fritillary

High Brown fritillaries can sometimes be found mud-puddling in large numbers - but I only seem to have this pic of a small group

Turkish Blue

Iphigenia Blue

Aedon with Anatolian Zephyr, Meleager’s, Turquoise and female Meleager’s

Blue Argus - a really stunning addition to the familiar line up

Anatolian Zephyr, Aedon, Eastern Baton and Common blues

A useful comparison of Common (left) and Eros

Mazarine, Turquoise with Mountain Argus, Amanda’s and Geranium Argus

Eastern Bath White

Small Bath White

Nettle Tree Butterfly

Scotch Argus

Marbled and Tufted Marbled Skippers

We are here principally for the butterflies, but there is much besides to appreciate about the area. Particularly notable is the large population of brown bear. Although unlikely to be encountered on our excursions during the day, barking dogs give away the presence of bears around the villages at night, and bear scat is an ever present on the paths and trails in the mountains. Not a guaranteed offering, but it has in the past been possible to go on an early morning drive in 4x4s to the very top of the local mountains where views of brown bears at sunrise are almost guaranteed. When available this is offered as a private extra and will only suit those happy to set an alarm for 5 a.m. This may well lead to some extra head-nodding on the bus later in the day, but surely this is a small price to pay for the opportunity to stand atop this mountain paradise as day gently breaks.

Bear country……

Early morning bear spotting (I didn’t actually attempt to photograph any bears - but I have a better bear story in the next section anyway……)

Mountain scenery (and me)

We try to vary our daily itinerary, sometimes heading first to the highest point of a valley road before gently descending on foot with the bus following behind, and at other times focusing low down in the lush, wooded lower valley where the banks of the river burst with wildflower and throng with butterflies. In this way we aim to maximise the opportunity to see as many species as possible, whilst hopefully still giving people plenty of opportunity to spend time in the field enjoying the various habitats and associated species on offer. We try to focus on valleys of different character to cover the area as best we can but spending just 3 or 4 days here is barely enough to scratch the surface and although we have ticks next to most of the species we know occur here, we always leave with the sense that despite our best efforts, these mountains have shared only a fraction of the secrets they hoard.

Leaving Barhal behind we head higher into the mountains to our second base at Olgunlar, where we will spend the remainder of the trip. I will cover this high altitude area in section 3….

[David M]

Excellent continuation, Ben. I'm positively drooling over some of those butterflies....and the habitat too!

Must really be a 'condensed' season up there if you can see Green Hairstreak at the same time as Scotch Argus and Brown Hairstreak!!

Are butterflies attracted to bear scat?

[bugboy]

Amazing stuff Ben, I must admit I've not even heard of some of the species you mention. As someone who regularly comes back from a day on the Norfolk fens with over a thousand images, I think it would take me a year to sift through images if I went to a place with such densities of butterfly life!

[Charles Nicol]

I am loving this adventure in the mountains of Turkey ! so many butterflies, many of which i have never heard of.

[Benjamin]

Thanks guys - it’s taking a bit of sorting out but I’m nearly there……

Disappointingly I’ve not seen any butterflies on bear scat so far - possibly these fruity deposits are just a little too benign. The rotting horse head pictured with Scarce Tortoiseshells at Gungormez however, was clearly a real box-ticker!

[Benjamin]

Section 3 - Olgunlar

An hour or so from Barhal, our final base is located in the Hastaf Valley between the towering peaks of the Gungormez range to the south and the Kackar range to the north. Our hotel is to be found at 2200m, where the single track road ends just above the tree line in the tiny village of Olgunlar.

Cattle are moved through the village to the extensive alpine pastures each day, and as a result the tight village paths are soaked with water and dung. The mix proves irresistible to many butterfly species and huge collections of blues form at sunny spots right outside the hotel. These puddling lycaenids are joined by swallowtails, fritillaries and Small Tortoiseshells and when the occasional car arrives clouds of butterflies take to the air in spectacular fashion.

With so many species in the immediate vicinity of the hotel this part of the trip is particularly suited to guests wanting to spend more time on photography. For these few days it is very easy to walk a short distance to find your own patch with fabulous species where you’re unlikely to be disturbed. Early mornings of course are particularly favoured by photographers, and with butterflies so easy to locate at roost in the evening, it is a simple task to set up in the perfect spot in the morning and wait for the sun to slowly tease open the wings of your target species. Where many individuals roost together this magic period of early morning basking produces a truly dizzying spectacle.

Twin-spot Fritillary

Twin-spot males

Apollo

Stunning altitude form of DGF

DGF

The itinerary for these few days is flexible, with some of the group electing to spend time around Olgunlar, while others explore a little further down the valley via bus. There is also the opportunity to spend one day hiking further up the Hastaf Valley, possibly reaching the base camp (3000m) commonly used for a full ascent of Kackar Dagi (3937m) - the highest peak of the Kackar Mountains.

Hastaf Valley path

Nearing base camp at 3000m

Habitat for Caucasian Fritillary and Balkan Coppers

Caucasian Fritillary

Balkan Copper

On my first trip to this area (before I began leading) I spent a day exploring the area alone. I was keen to head up to see if I could find any high altitude species, and rather than spend all day slowly gaining altitude along the well-trodden Hastaf Valley path, I decided to go off-piste and just head up the steep slopes overlooking the hotel.

I can’t run up these things any more, and with so many butterflies to look out for I wouldn’t want to anyway. So with regular stops for butterflies the pace was fairly gentle and it took about 3 hours to reach what still remained of the snow sheet. This was located at around 3000m where the lush alpine meadows gradually give way to scree and bare rock.

Amongst the rock and scree it was easy to find Caucasian Ringlets - one of my target high altitude species, and after adding some foot prints to the snow (a novelty in mid July), I set about trying to get some photos. They were extremely flighty however, and despite a really concerted effort I couldn’t get close enough for anything satisfying.

Caucasian Ringlet

This was undoubtedly an absorbing pursuit, so it was with something of a shock, that after yet another failed approach I lifted my gaze and noticed a bear approaching at a distance of 80 metres or so. Of course I knew bears were fairly common in these mountains, but at this time of year, and at this time of day encounters are rare - at least according to Ishmael the hotel owner! I must admit I had not expected to see one, and suddenly finding myself in the path of a male, high up in an open valley next to the snow line with no obvious path to safety was, in that moment, far more concerning than it was magical.

Luckily, and as I’m sure will nearly always be the case, he showed absolutely zero interest in me and continued in my direction happily snuffling at the ground and pawing at anything of interest. I wasted no time in carefully manoeuvring myself to the opposite side of the valley (he didn’t look up once) where a small ripple in the topography gave me a relatively concealed spot from which I could compose myself and then snap a few photos. I was curious to see where he would go when he reached the snow, but I didn’t hang around to find out and once he had passed by I headed back down rather more quickly than I had ascended (hence blurry photo of Lederer’s Heath in cop - I couldn’t pass them by, but also I couldn’t stop!).

Russian Heath (above) and Lederer’s Heath

In subsequent years I’ve found all the likely montane species (Caucasian Fritillary, Caucasian Ringlet, Alpine Ringlet, Hewitson’s Ringlet) at around 2800m up the Hastaf Valley path - so no need for off-piste adventures and remote bear encounters remain entirely optional!

Alpine Ringlet

Gavarnie/Balkan Blue

Hewitson’s Ringlet, Dusky Meadow Brown, Grey Asian Grayling, False Grayling

And some other common species in the mountains….Marsh Fritillaries

Heath Fritillaries

Spotted/Caucasian Spotted Fritillaries, False Heath and puddling fritillaries and blues

Sloe Hairstreak

Large, Chapman’s and Silver-studded blues

Splitting post……

[Benjamin]

Swallowtails puddling around Olgunlar and also hill-topping at 3000m

False Chalkhill Blue

Yellow-banded, Aegean, Olive and Large Grizzled skippers

Marbled, Tufted Marbled and Dingy skippers

Aegean, Marbled, Yellow-banded and Tufted Marbled Skippers puddling

Puddling blues including Turquoise, Iphigenia, Eros, Aedon and Common

After Olgunlar we spend a day returning to Erzurum, where we spend our final night before flying home in the morning. The transit day gives us the opportunity to call in at several of the sites we visited on the way out and provides a second chance to see specialities such as Fiery and Lesser Fiery coppers, Merhaba, Poseidon, Hopffer’s and Little Tiger blues, Amasian and Anatolian satyrs, White-bordered Grayling and Orange Hermit amongst many, many others.

Hopefully this report has given a reasonable account of the area covered, without, of course, attempting to be anything like an exhaustive study. Although we largely revisit the same areas each year, every trip is slightly different, and as it is so satisfying to continuously build on knowledge from previous trips, i’m sure it’ll be many years yet, before I hesitate to dedicate one or two of the prime July weeks to the Kackar.

[selbypaul]

Once again, thanks so much for sharing this information and the photos. I'll be sure to do the trip one year soon!

[David M]

Magical sights you've seen, Ben, although that bear encounter was a little close for comfort. The Apollo is beautifully marked. Are they all like that in those mountains?

You must have seen 150+ species during the week there?

[Benjamin]

Excellent Paul - you won’t be disappointed!

Yes, David, I think she’s a fairly typical female. They can certainly be quite heavily marked - perhaps even more so than this individual.

We tend to see around 140 - 150 species, but we’re getting better at tracking down some tricky ones so we should be able to make 150 the norm.