Adonis variant

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Cheers Pete
I am a proper science kid, I know my stuff! But can't spell!

But as I say, I will take a trip down to the library or something and see what I can find. I can normally read things and understand them pretty quick.

I think this will be geographical thing if it's to do with mutated genes, but has the potential to spread. But we must be careful if this is the case, these new butterflies could carry/create new diseases or disadantages that could spread.

Take a spannel (I think) they have a huge chance of going blind due to their genes. It is caused by a mutation that occured when mankind was trying to enhance some charecteristics through breeding, now it's in all their DNA

Mouse

[Pete Eeles]

These new butterflies could carry/create new diseases or disadantages that could spread.

If there is a disadvantage, then natural selection will sort them out!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Dave McCormick]

Hey Mouse, thats good information there, I like all that scientific stuff although I am not that great at science myself but am facinated with much of it.

I know that there can be four things that could happen: A aberration (which can cause differences in wing colours, markings etc...) A Gyndromorph (half male, half female, cannot mate or breed) or a hermaphrodite (possess both male and female sex organs at somepoint) or a albino (all white) I have seen an albino GV White before, it had white veins instead of dark ones and no markings on upperside.

What I am wondering now, is can two subspecies of the same type say to dofferent subspecies of Speckled wood (P. a. aegeria and P. a. tircis) were found in similar areas, could the two interbreed and create a hybrid third subspecies of a mix of the two and if so, would the hybrids be able to breed?

Also I was wondering, could a subspecies come from an aberration? Example would be:

Small Tortoiseshell. Take ab. semi-ichnusoides. It can occur if tempreture is a little warmer than normal when the caterpillar is changing inside pupae. It does not need all the orange markings as its warm enough around it and does not need to heat up so fast with bright colours so it has darker ones (I think thats right) so it hatches out with mostly darker markings.

Could the ab. semi-ichnusoides become a seperate subspecies in a certian area if the small tortoiseshell butterflies in that certian area are always subject to the same or very similar conditions that thet ab was created from or would that just mean that this area contained a lot of these abs and if something changed slightly, the small tortoiseshells would end up looking like normal ones and not the ab? (not sure if I explained that very clear, best I could do)

On that, I was wondering why its so common to find Small Copper abs with the blue spots, as they are sometimes more common than non ab small coppers

And if it seems I wrote this late, I did, I have bad cold and could not sleep, so came on my computer for a while.

[Pete Eeles]

can two subspecies of the same type say to dofferent subspecies of Speckled wood (P. a. aegeria and P. a. tircis) were found in similar areas, could the two interbreed.

Yes - by definition, a subspecies is not a species - it can therefore breed with other subspecies.

and create a hybrid third subspecies of a mix of the two and if so, would the hybrids be able to breed.

The offsprings would not be a third subspecies (IMHO). You're more likely to get something that more closely resembles one or the other and that can breed. Anyway - this is a hypothetical situation! I'd also have to say that the separation into subspecies isn't an exact science. This is particularly true of species that exhibit a "cline" from one subspecies to another. The Specked Wood is one example. The Large Heath another. The separation of Large Heath into 3 subspecies, based on the size of their spots, is somewhat artificial (again, my opinion!).

Also I was wondering, could a subspecies come from an aberration?

Yes - mutation is the basis of new species (and subspecies) being formed. But it takes hundreds, if not thousands, of years (I believe!).

Take ab. semi-ichnusoides. It can occur if tempreture is a little warmer than normal when the caterpillar is changing inside pupae. It does not need all the orange markings as its warm enough around it and does not need to heat up so fast with bright colours so it has darker ones (I think thats right) so it hatches out with mostly darker markings.

As far as I'm aware, a mating pair of semi-ichnusoides will always produce offspring that are normal. Unless, of course, the same environmental factors were applied. Having said that, many forms (and subspecies) are the result of temperature - such as butteflies that have different forms for the wet and dry seasons (and the Map behaves in a similar manner) and, I guess, the Specked Wood.

On that, I was wondering why its so common to find Small Copper abs with the blue spots, as they are sometimes more common than non ab small coppers.

Probably due to a recessive gene (as Mouse explained). So - if both parents have this gene, then blue spots appear. Otherwise, the dominant gene will override the recessive gene - so no blue spots.

Cheers,

- Pete

[KeynvorLogosenn]

My Answer exactly Pete, nice one.

Yes - mutation is the basis of new species (and subspecies) being formed. But it takes hundreds, if not thousands, of years (I believe!).

This is true, but it depends on how fast generations occur. For example, one species could have 10 generations in a year, where as another could have just one. Evoloution has the potenial to occur 10x faster for the first species than the second. It is dependant on the number of generations, but yes, this could take hundreds upon thousands of years. However would occur faster in Butterflies than us, we could possibly see this in our life times.
And maybe we are!

Probably due to a recessive gene (as Mouse explained). So - if both parents have this gene, then blue spots appear. Otherwise, the dominant gene will override the recessive gene - so no blue spots.

Yes! But there could be many alleles that control this gene, so it is more complicated. But essentially, yes sounds correct. Nice one!

Get better soon Dave, I have this awful cold as well, but it appears to be going now!

Right, I am off soon to read up about this butterfly to try and narrow down our possible four, well done guys, to a one. Let's see shall we.

Mouse

[Vince Massimo]

Time for another photo I think.

This is the first sight that greeted me when I walked onto Ballard Down on 18 May. They all seem to be Adonis males. Fortunately you cannot see what they are "feeding" on, but you would not want to get any of it on your shoe!. The following day they had all gone so, it was a lucky find. Better to be lucky than good I think.

Did I mention that I am not an expert on genetics?

Cheers,

Vince

P5180002B.jpg (191.04 KiB) Viewed 3401 times

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Did I mention that I am not an expert on genetics?

Did you follow our scientific genetic babble alright?

Mouse

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Got your answer!

Right, I think your butterfly here is an example of intersexuality. (combined gender, showing charecteristics of both)
I don't think this is an example of a mutation in the charecteristics of the butterfly. As you describe it as a 'cross' of male and female. Therefore would not result in a sub species unfortunatly.

Here goes the explaination:

Right, in Lepidoptera they adopt a heterogametic sex chromosome system, simular to humans. However humans, the male carrys the heterogametic sex chromosome, which the the Y. This is dominate. therefore X is recessive. so XY is male and carrys the Y - the heterogametic chromosome.
Now in Lepidoptera, they have this system except the female carrys the heterogametic sex chromosome. A female is WZ (in some species it it still Z or 0Z), and the male is ZZ.

There are no hormones, which influence the development of the male or female secondary sexual characters, circulating in the blood, but it is probable that the corpus allatum secretes a hormone, identical in both sexes.

Now the cause is probably a mix up, and certainly you can produce intersexual butterflies/moths. Especially in second Hybrids due to a lack in balance between the Z chromosome and autosomes (A chromosome that is not a sex chromosome).

Intersexes are found in several species of Lycaenidae (your Adonis is in this family in case you are confused). They are restricted to certain colonies, in which there is an excess of females, and basically their sexual organs don't form to produce a gender. The cause is unknown.

There is research on 'turning points' in sexual development in Lepidoptera, but I feel the evidence and speculation is a bit shaky, so I won't go into it.

Therefore this wouldn't be a new sub-species forming and the butterfly would be unfertile. But nevertheless and great find and a one in a very big number of a chance to come across one and get a great photo!

what does everyone think?

Mouse

[Dave McCormick]

I think you may be right mouse, because looking at the two adonis blues, they both look like females (based on fatter abdomen), if it were a true gyndromorph, you'd see the male and female differences, see this Poplar Hawk moth image I was sent a long time ago, part male and female (I showed the male and female sides):



I have some ideas of my own (just theroies, I am no expert on the subject, wheres David Attenbourgh when you need him?).

Same species of a type that look different than normal could also be because of either Speciatation ( is the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise. There are four modes of natural speciation, based on the extent to which speciating populations are geographically isolated from one another) or Sympatric speciation (the genetic divergence of various populations (from a single parent species) inhabiting the same geographic region, such that those populations become different species.)

Males usually come out of pupae first because of two things, first males need time to fuel up and become "sexually active" while the usually bit larger females are stil forming in pupae for a few days more, then when they hatch out the males are ready to mate as females are only sexually active for a few days then lose that ability and to carry on the species, both male and females have to be active and able to mate so the species can reproduce and if both males and females were found at the same time, by the time the males were sexually active or ready, females would have lost that and no breeding would occur and the loss of a species might happen.

Lycaenidae as you said mouse some species in it can interbreed, I have seen this in chalkhill blues intebreeding with (I think) either common or adonis blues in same area as them, creating a hybrid species that could not breed. I looked at the first two adonis blues and they do kinda resemble common blue females slightly (first one has similar common blue spots), not saying adonis and common blues hybrided, but if there were common blues around same time as adonis blues in that area, it might happen.

[KeynvorLogosenn]

That sounds plausable Dave, and it wouldn't suprise me at all if this has happened before. But I think for this case its an Adonis, more so than a cross.
Interesting stuff though
Mouse

[Pete Eeles]

I just came across this:

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/jdsml/research-cur ... scientific

and this:

http://www.ibc.regione.emilia-romagna.i ... mg0003.jpg

This is the "polonus" hybrid between a Chalkhill Blue and an Adonis Blue. It looks very much like Vince's photo! Unfortunately, I can't find anything that shows a male v female polonus.

Cheers,

- Pete

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Do you think this is the same thing then Pete?
I can't tell from the photographs, I have just gone on what people have described.

It certainly sounds like this would produce such an outcome especially after what Dave had said.

Mouse

[Vince Massimo]

I would like to say a big thank-you to all of those who worked so hard to try to find an answer to the original question. I still have some work to do on the intersexuality issue and have promised Pete and Guy some further background information. We may however never get a final definitive answer, but we all learned a lot in the process.

As I will not be able to make any further posts untill next weekend I leave you with two more photos taken at Ballard Down on 22 and 20 May respectively showing the diversity in the female Adonis population on this site.

P5220254A.jpg (119.31 KiB) Viewed 3261 times

P5200115A.jpg (163.03 KiB) Viewed 3256 times

Finally, I have a 2 minute video of the various Adonis Blues I saw on Ballard Down, including an "intersex" female and the various congregations of males. Unfortunately I have neither the equipment or the expertise to transfer it from a standard VHS tape to disc and then post it on the website. If there is anyone out there who can help to achieve this, I would be happy to pay all reasonable costs. Any offers or advice?

Thanks again to all

Vince

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Hi Vince

You said you were looking into intersexuality, I went to research that, so I know a fair bit. What do you know about it so far? I could help you with what I found.

I can't see the photos to see how this female is different. Don't worry, you uploaded it right, it's just me.

Mouse

[Vince Massimo]

Hi Mouse,

Please keep working. I am just checking a few details from another source. I have a book which explains the intersexuality mutation, but it turns out that Pete has the same book (he just forgot!). I cannot do any more with this until next weekend, so Pete and Guy are looking into it until then.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Vince

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Don't worry Vince, I am working on it in my free time! I am booking a place at rothamsted library for myself , bound to have loads of stuff there!

Please bare in mind I have no idea what the butterflies look like in your pictures, an idea on how to differentiate between genetic mutation of gametes and intersexuality, so a blind guess would be:
Butterfly can't seem to be able to produce off-sping - Intersexuality (first picture buy the sound of it)
Butterfly seems able to produce off-spring IE looks totally female or male but with wing differences in the markings or whatever, which I think would be more of a random mutation.

Pete and Guy, look into 'turning points' of the gender development of a butterfly, research by Goldschmit, I would like to hear your views on this. As there is conflicting evidence. If this is true, then it would explain most intersexual butterflies.

Love to hear what you guys come up with

Mouse

[KeynvorLogosenn]

by the way, on the idea of butterfly evolution, what do think of this?
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shorts ... onary.html

The thing that was killing the males,There is another thing as well, but I don't think it is the cause of this one. In Pygaera (a moth) there is a cancer that only effects males and kills them at the larva stage. It is believed it is passed by a recessive gene to all the sons from the mother, using the WZ (XY) chromosomes.

These butterflies in the article have evolved to produce a natural resistance. This happens for bacteria as well, if you don't finish a course of antibiotics, some bacteria could still be left, reproduce and become resistant to the antibiotic. Clever stuff.

Mouse

[Padfield]

Hi Mouse,

I have to say that if my own students spent as much time researching questions as you do I would be a very happy teacher!! Unfortunately I haven't had the time myself, with all the work I've had preparing new courses at school (excuses, excuses).

The genus Lysandra is famously variable and forms a complex of closely related species, some of which are known to hybridise where the ranges overlap. I've seen pictures of polonus , mentioned by Pete, but only of males, and Vince's butterfly does appear to be anatomically female. The deformed abdomen and extreme male colouring strongly suggest there has been some developmental malfunction and I'm very interested in this intersex research you have done.

On the subject of subspecies, it is important to realise that almost by definition you do not find two different subspecies in the same community (there are very rare exceptions to this). This is because, as Pete says, subspecies of a butterfly can interbreed and thus the genetic distinction between the subspecies would be soon be blurred if they occupied the same niche. Different subspecies are separated geographically - often altitudinally - or, again as Pete says, smeared out in a cline. Anyway, in this particular case, the question of subspecies doesn't arise and is a bit of a red herring (or green herring, or grayscale herring, Emily!! ).

Keep working on it!!

Guy

[KeynvorLogosenn]

ha grey scale !

No probs, I am taking this to Rothamsted Research Centre. There I am sure to find the answer and why. Although I am sure this is a case of intersexuality, how this happens and wether turning points are actually real, I haven't yet answered, but I am working on it

Genetics isn't the only thing I Research, there are things that are related to school work, me personally or a question I may have. But the main things I look into re Biosciences, Geochemistry, Geophysics, Geology, Biology itself and Chemistry and Phyics including the universe. So everything really!! Not so much engineering though.

So I am used to learning, understanding and dismissing scientific stuff quite quickly. It's second nature. Oh yeah, and explaining it too! So basically, if you have a science problem ask me , and if I don't know, I will research. Everything has an answer, and when there is an answer there is a solution.

Mouse

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Right Okay, after some more research, I think I may have got a little closer, so I am looking for what you guys think about this. (It's taken longer, I had to re-do all my research)

This could be an example of a gynandromorph, this literally means means part female - gyn and part male andro. Right, stick with me here, this may take some explaining...

Lets start right at the very begining: All organisms that can reproduce sexually, so thats us, the birds, the bees and the butterflies etc (not bacteria and single celled organisms, for example) started life as a little single cell, they have a groovy name which is a zygote (I won a game of scrabble with that ). Basically a Zygote is a posh scientific word for a fertilised egg. From there this cell divides and divides into a few stem cells (stem cells - these are unspecialised cells, they have not yet been 'told' whether they are going to be nerve cells, tissue cells, blood cells, sex cells etc). Then these stem cells specialise creating all the parts in the body, also can be known as a process called differentiation (not the mathmatical kind) - where all the cells follow developmental pathway that determines what it will become (a muscle cell, a nerve cell, a cell lining the intestine, etc.). They are no longer stem cells anymore, they have become specialised. Then these specialised cells with divide into more of what they are specialised it. Take for instance and stem cell becomes a bone cell (I can explain how if you want me too, I thought it would be a bit long otherwise), that bone cell will divide into more bone cells.

Okay, still with me?
In humans, the earliest cell divisions are indeterminate, which means that the developmental pathway is still flexible for all of the cells. So therefore the benifit to us is that, if one of these early cells happened to be destroyed, the end result is that it has virtually NO effect on development, since the other cells are still "flexible" in what they can become. So they are still Stem Cells at this point, they haven't specialised, no big deal if a few are destroyed, they weren't specialised in anything. This is in the very Early Stages

However in insects and Lepidoptera cell division in, from the zygote on, is completely determinate, which means that decisions about what a cell will become are made with each division - they don't have stem cells like we do in the Zygote stage, ours divide then specialise, theirs divide and specialise at the same time.
This is how the divisions that determine what the cell specialises in and the order:
- First Division (of the Zygote) - determines Left and Right Sides
- Second Division - Determines back and front --> now there are four cells, Front Left, Front Right, Back Left, Back Right
- Third Division - Top and Bottom --> at this point there are eight cells, front upper Left, front Lower left etc

Say if an insect cell were to be damaged, you would end up with 7/8 ths of an insect - if it could develop that far, say missing the lower back left cell - missing the left lower part of the abdomen for example.

Right okay I hear you say, what has this got to do with Gynandromorphs?

As I mentioned previously, sex in humans and in Lepidoptera is determind by XX and XY system - not quite true, but I am keeping it simple (TRYING ) see an earlier post where I explain the gender system!!

Now, quoted from earlier 'In gametes there are 23. This is because, when the egg is fertilised 23 chromosomes from the male + 23 chromosomes for the female = 46.' Bare this in mind again.
Right okay, now there can be a mistake in the copying of the Chromosomes to make the Gamates and this is called non-disjunction This is where two copies of a particular chromosome do not detach from each other during cell division to make two gamates. (double helix, basically one side goes into one Gamete and the other side into another Gamete - when the egg is fertilised, the two halfs 'click' together again. I feel the need for a diagram, I will try and make one when I get back home), and the end result is that one of the cells will end up missing an entire chromosome, which is typically lethal to the cell. The other cell (that gets the unseparated chromosome) may be unaffected, or normal, though problems can occur in this cell as well.

This is where it really applies to the butterflies now! Finally

If a non-disjunction occurs in an X chromosome in an individual that is XX (male in butterflies/moths remember), that would mean that one of the cells in this division would end up with one X chromosome, while the other would end up with two (or three) X's. In other words, one of the resulting cells (and all cells that came from that cell) would be female, while the other cell (and its descendents) would be male. I will draw a diagram when I get home (tomorrow).

So, if you have a non-disjunction in an X chromosome in an XX individual during the first division of the zygote, then you will end up with an individual that appears half male (on one side) and half female (on the other side). Think of how the cells in the Zygote divide... (diagram to go here I think) This is called a bilateral gynandromorph.
The Adonis is not a bilateral gynandromorph as both sides show both male and female charecteristics.

BUT The non-disjunction can occur during later divisions, giving you a smaller portion of the body/wings that looks like one sex and a larger portion that looks like another. It can even happen more than once during development, so that you end up with patches of female and male scattered around on the individual, resulting in what is called a mosaic gynandromorph


Da! Da! - maybe what we have here? What would you all say? Due the nature of division of cells in the Zygote, this could result in the male and female genes being spread about a bit and becoming symetrical..
anyway, just a thought, I'd love to hear what others think to this, and well spotted Dave for pointing me in this direction!!

Em
P.S. if some or none of that made sense, just say and I will give it another bash at explaining, hopefully some diagrams will help out!