Adonis variant

[Vince Massimo]

Hello everybody, this is my first post to the forum, although I have been lurking for some time and some of you will know me from the Sussex pages. I attach 3 photos taken at Ballard Down in Dorset on 19, 20 and 22 May 2008 respectively.

The first is definately a female Adonis variant but leads me to believe that the second photo is an all-blue female of the same species. Note the spot on each forewing and lack of blue hairs on the abdomen. The third attachment is a male for comparison.

Does anyone agree with this id or have any other thoughts on the subject?

Thanks
Vince

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[Pete Eeles]

Hi Vince - I think I agree

The Cockayne database lists a few abs. - http://www.nhm.ac.uk/jdsml/research-cur ... =bellargus

For the first, a match with semiceronus or venilia looks good, but there's nothing for the second. So I look forward to other suggestions!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

That second butterfly is very interesting indeed! The abdomen suggests it is a female, as does the spot on the upperside of the forewing. But then again, the abdomen looks rather strange at the end. The hindwing looks far more like a male - those dark spots are quite common in males.

If it were possible, I would guess this individual was composed of male and female cells all interspersed with each other. But I know of no mechanism by which such an evenly distributed gynandromorph could arise. When errors occur so early in development that they divide the cell mass into two equal halves that is usually represented by a physically divided butterfly (typically, a bilateral gynandromorph).

Perhaps one of the biologists in these forums could say whether it is possible for a chromosomally female butterfly to develop as a female and then to 'switch' to male development (because of some developmental fault, maybe environmentally stimulated) at the final stage when scales were added... This sort of thing can happen in mammals when hormonal control goes wrong.

Whatever the truth is, I have certainly never seen anything like this before - a fascinating find!

Guy

[Vince Massimo]

Blimey! - Thanks Guy, your comments were very interesting indeed. I have now done some research and find that this is probably not a gynandrous form, but as a result of another error during cell division. Apparently it can be due to the X chromosomes failing to separate at a late stage in the wing development process. I have seen a detailed explanation which shows how a female butterfly can then develop male coloration. However, the result of such a mutation is usually a butterfly with a mosaic appearance rather than a uniform colour over the entire upperside. There is also another process called intersexuality where mixed forms can develop. This is basically where individuals from widely separate races of the same species mate and produce offspring. I should point out that I am not an expert on genetics - I just looked it up! .

Another point that I did not previously mention is that I actually saw a second individual with the extreme variation on 20 May. I have it on video and it had slightly larger dark spots on the hind wing. Unfortunately I did not get a good look at the underside of either individual.

As if that was not enough, I also observed some spectacular behaviour in the large Adonis population on this same site. I already knew that some butterflies took minerals from the ground or other sources, but did not expect to see over 100 newly emerged males congregated around a muddy puddle. Unfortunately the spectacle only lasted a few days and my photos could never do it justice, but here are some examples.

For those interested in this site, I will be sending details of the exact location to Pete.

Thanks to for all the comments, particularly to Pete for initially sticking his neck out .

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Hey
I am certainly interested in the site.

If these butterflies that have the varient produce off-sping, could we have a localised sub-species or something? Could this become national?

Mouse

[Vince Massimo]

Hi Mouse,

Before I reply I would again remind everyone that I am not an expert on genetics and am happy to be corrected at any time .

During the course of my research on this particular matter I have found that the sexual mutations (i.e. gynandromorphs) are sterile. Assuming that mine is not, it does appear to have a malformed abdomen and therefore may not be capable of mating. However the female Adonis on this site in Dorset are extremely variable and there are many with an element of blue colouring.

I hope this is helpful .

Cheers,

Vince

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Yeah thanks Vince, I did some genetics in biology last year, so i was just corouis. I am no expert either!

Mouse

[Paul]

What a wonderful sighting. Isn't something like that important enough to be of national academic interest? - if so, who would one inform??

[KeynvorLogosenn]

erm, butterfly conservation?

I live in the same town as Rothamstead research centre, they would be interested for sure. On their open days they have butterfly things around. It would be a start maybe?

Mouse

[Padfield]

There is also another process called intersexuality where mixed forms can develop. This is basically where individuals from widely separate races of the same species mate and produce offspring.

I'd be interested to learn more about this. Presumably the 'intersex' bit comes about because the thresholds for male and female development (in terms of the effects of hormones, or whatever hormones are called in butterflies) in the widely separated races have shifted, so a level that in one race would produce female colouring produces partial male colouring when transposed to the other race.

That is purely speculation, of course - I have no idea what I'm talking about! I'd like to know, though.

Guy

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Alright, I am going to stick my neck out a it. But this could be due to a mutation in the Gametes (sex cells) of either the male or female, or possibly both, in an individual(s). this can happen naturally and is how eveloution happened through natural selection etc.
In a person for example, we have 46 pairs of chromosomes which make our DNA. On these Chromosomes, are alles (spelling ). there are many different alles on the chromosome, and these determin charecteristics. Take Hair colour for example, there is an alle for hair colour. Now there are recessive and dominate alles that determin what colour hair you will have. Bare this in mind, I may come back to this example.

Now, as I mentioned, take the human example as I dont know for butterflies, we have 46 chromosomes. In gametes there are 23. This is because, when the egg is fertilised 23 chromosomes from the male + 23 chromosomes for the female = 46. I wont go into gender and confuse you.

Now in these gametes, there can be mutations, which happens naturally. It's a mecanism for improing surival chances. Say, erm take a bunny for example who wants to live in the artic. There is a alle for fur thickness, There could be a mutation for thicker fur or thinner fur. Bunnies born with thinner fur will die because of the cold, where as thicker fur bunnies will be fine and surive and pass on their genes. thats an example of why this happens . a real life example of a mutated gene is a white tiger. This could be the cause of this variation. for example of the spot.
If these butterflies with the mutated alle or whatever are able to pass it on, then a sub species maybe?

Now there are chances to this, take the basic hair colour again. Blonde is recessive, shown as a b, where as brown is a B as it is dominate. what this means is you will need bb for blonde. One from the male and one from the female. where are Bb will be brown because Brown is dominate, but a carrier of blonde and BB would also be brown.

If the spot mutation for example if recessive. There could be carriers and it will show through again when a Ss (s is mutated spot) and Ss produce of-sping with ss. It gets more complicated, so I will leave it there. Any questions I will try my best to answer. But i am no expert

Mouse - sorry its so long

[KeynvorLogosenn]

PS dont hold me to that! I could be wrong!

Mouse

[Pete Eeles]

Nice one Mouse

The spelling is "allele".

Yes - mutation is the basis of evolution and natural selection. Darwin would have been proud of your explanation However, it's not much use if it results in sterile offspring (either the immediate, or subsequent, generations).

Cheers,

- Pete

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Or it could be due to a more simpler explaination, well easier to explain
And extra or missing chromosome?
The cause of Down Syndrome in Humans. Possibly?

Where there loads of these? A one off would point towards this, if there are a few, then it may point to my first explaination

Mouse

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Oh sorry Guy forgot to mention, yes it is possible for a gender change to happen to during a life time. Take this hen for example
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... kerel.html

Mouse

[Pete Eeles]

In simple terms (and I, too, am no expert) ... I think 2 factors are at play here.

The first is whether or not an aberration (= mutation) has an advantage, in some way, over the other individuals. For example, imagine a bug with exocets on its wings (see below - this is "Withus Oragainstus", a concoction by Banksy, the greatest urban artist that ever lived). It would have a distinct advantage, would survive, and would pass its genes onto its offspring - including the mutation.

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The second is whether the population is isolated geographically. If the gene pool is constrained in this way then, over time, certain mutations are more likely to reappear, since no "new blood" is entering the colony. This may lead to a new "race" of butterflies that play banjos (a poor reference to the film "Deliverance", but I'm sure you get the point!).

The result of an isolated population is, therefore, mutations that survive and are established. This ultimately results in what we might call a subspecies. When this subspecies can no longer produce viable offspring with other colonies, then it would be classed as a separate species.

Having said all that, I'm very curious as to why some subspecies have taken hold. For example, what advantage is there for the masseyi subspecies of Silver-studded Blue to have a partially-blue female? Absolutely fascinating stuff!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Vince Massimo]

Hi Guy,

I have a very good butterfly book which explains the various processes of mutation in detail. I do not have it to hand at the moment because it is at my "other" house. I would be very happy to pass on the information you have requested on intersexuality, but am unsure whether I would be breaching copyright law if I quoted the particular paragraph in full. I know you would probably like as detailed an explanation as possible, but do not know where I would stand legally even if I were just to summarise the information. I would appreciate guidance on the matter because I have not done this before.

I would continue to point out that I am still not an expert on genetics even though I have a book

Cheers,

Vince

[Pete Eeles]

Hi Guy,

I have a very good butterfly book which explains the various processes of mutation in detail. I do not have it to hand at the moment because it is at my "other" house. I would be very happy to pass on the information you have requested on intersexuality, but am unsure whether I would be breaching copyright law if I quoted the particular paragraph in full. I know you would probably like as detailed an explanation as possible, but do not know where I would stand legally even if I were just to summarise the information. I would appreciate guidance on the matter because I have not done this before.

I would continue to point out that I am still not an expert on genetics even though I have a book

Cheers,

Vince

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants". In your case - you have the right book What book is this Vince, I'm pretty interested in this? As someone who runs a website (and has written a few books in his time), I think you're right to be careful and should respect the copyright - it's really annoying when someone steals your work (or your friends' work).

However, should you scan in the relevant information and send this to Guy privately, we wouldn't know

Cheers,

- Pete

[KeynvorLogosenn]

I can't see the advantage with the silver studded blues, but as it may not be a disadvantage, its alright. Maybe?

I think it could be the same result as the hen. Or a mix up in the gender genes to produce a 'cross' which I think you are describing. It can happen in Humans, for example when a female has too much testosterone, they can grow facial hair

maybe this is the cause?

I will read up on it tomorrow

Mouse

[Pete Eeles]

I can't see the advantage with the silver studded blues, but as it may not be a disadvantage, its alright. Maybe?

Good thinking Mouse. Perhaps the normal brown female is brown to deter certain predators. And perhaps they don't occur in Shropshire May sound strange, but it's certainly feasible!

I think it could be the same result as the hen. Or a mix up in the gender genes to produce a 'cross' which I think you are describing. It can happen in Humans, for example when a female has too much testosterone, they can grow facial hair maybe this is the cause?

Nice analogy!

Cheers,

- Pete