A Challenge

[petesmith]

If anyone fancies a challenge during lockdown, it would be interesting to see how many different species people think they can see in the photograph below. I posted this a few days back in the "European Blues" thread, but it occurs to me that it would make a nice challenge, a bit of a Coronavirus Quiz, in one photo.

I reckon I can see 1 Erebia species, 2 Pyrgus species, (possibly 3) and 10 Lycaenids.

Would be fascinating to hear how many others can count.

I shall refrain from naming my individual species list for the moment in case anyone wants to have a go:

[David M]

Sure is a challenge, Pete, and I've got sore eyes having looked for half an eternity at this extraordinary gathering.

I'll put my nominations forward in three categories - definite, confident and possible

Definite

False Mnestra Ringlet

Safflower Skipper

Glandon Blue
Idas Blue
Damon Blue
Eros Blue
Mazarine Blue
Mountain Argus

Confident

Oberthur's Grizzled Skipper - to the SE of the Glandon Blue in the middle, partly obscured by the pebble. The submarginal markings on the uph are not 'bullet' shaped, as in Safflower, and the 'clothes peg' looks good too.

Escher's Blue -just to the NE of the aforementioned 'Oberthur's' with wings almost shut and the wings-open one just SW on the other side of the pebble.

Silver Studded Blue - this is what's causing my eyes to ache, trying to spot the candidates. I can't be absolutely certain but there are a few that look likely.

Possible

Chapman's/Common Blue? - this is the one that intrigues me most. Find the central Glandon Blue and there's a Mountain Argus just to the left. A little above it there are two that look to be Idas Blues and on the pebble above, facing to the right is a butterfly that doesn't look like any of the above I've named.

Large Grizzled Skipper? - Middle, towards the left there is a group of pyrgus. There is one wings part open which is weakly marked on the upf and another a bit higher up to the left of aethiopella that is a candidate too. Then, at the very left edge (with part of the hindwings not in shot and beside the Damon and Mazarine facing each other wings closed) there is a third.

[Padfield]

Brilliant!

To add to David's 'definites', there are some definite icarus in there, as he suspects, and definite argus and escheri. I can't locate a definite thersites and I can't string any of the damon into amandus, more's the pity! I'd expect to see eumedon lurking somewhere in a picture like that but I can't find one either.

On the skipper front, I agree there's a possible alveus (sadly, too large to be a possible warrenensis, I think) and I would add definite malvae/malvoides (postcode butterflies, and I don't know the postcode of this picture) and probable serratulae.

I'd love to add a picture of my own, but none of my 'blues groups' comes close to this! Stunning picture.

Guy

[David M]

Still can't see the obvious malvoides, Guy. Maybe it's hiding in plain sight?

I too tried to conjure an amandus, and that probably gave me the greatest amount of eye-ache after my attempts to identify argus.

[Padfield]

Hi David. I think the one you identified as armoricanus is malvoides (or malvae, depending on where this is!). I hadn't followed your word arrow, to be honest, so hadn't realised this is the one you meant. Tell me why it's not ...

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

Agree malvoides. Will have a closer look tomorrow. Strongly suspect serratulae and carthami at first glance. I don't find armoricanus to be an altitude species.

I think thersites is there. It sure looks like icarus, but icarus isn't a puddler...

I reserve the right to say differently tomorrow.

[petesmith]

Many thanks for the input folks.
David, I hope your eyes have recovered, and kudos to you for being brave enough to stick your neck out and commit to a species list so soon!

Guy, many thanks for your comments - I deliberately left out the location, date and altitude initially. I think the presence of aethiopella gives a clue as to the postcode that suggests malvoides rather than malvae, but I stand ready to be corrected...

My list for the Blues included both icarus and thersites, along with argus and idas, but somehow I had completely overlooked escheri!

Regarding the Pyrgus species, the only two that I was confident of were carthami and malvoides. I wouldn't have sufficient confidence without clear undersides to make the call on the possible alveus,serratulae etc , but I eagerly await Roger's further comments.

I shall add location details now : the photograph was taken just south of Lac Egorgiou in the Queyras, 12th July 2017 at 2400m asl.

[Roger Gibbons]

Here are a few thoughts mapped onto the image.

I had to reduce the size and quality in order to add the image as it was too large otherwise.

These are really just best guesses. Pyrgus are impossible to say with any confidence from just an upperside view alone. Especially as serratulae can vary greatly in the strength of its markings.

I'm unsure about icarus, mainly on the basis that I rarely see them puddling and I have never seen icarus higher than 1875m (the electricity station on the Isola 2000 road). I am reasonably sure there is thersites there from the underside, and I am not sure that the icarus-looking upperside isn't thersites as well, despite the colour and the rather thin black border. Could one of those uppersides be orbitulus?

I have to confess that I didn't see argus there, but it would be easy to miss it.

Roger

[David M]

Hi David. I think the one you identified as armoricanus is malvoides (or malvae, depending on where this is!). I hadn't followed your word arrow, to be honest, so hadn't realised this is the one you meant. Tell me why it's not ...

Thanks, Guy. I'm sure you and Roger are both right. Given the perspective, it seemed quite large to me, but then I suppose that's because its nearer the camera than the butterflies behind it.

Oberthur's isn't a particularly high altitude butterfly in my experience, whereas malvoides certainly is.

[David M]

I'm unsure about icarus, mainly on the basis that I rarely see them puddling and I have never seen icarus higher than 1875m (the electricity station on the Isola 2000 road). I am reasonably sure there is thersites there from the underside, and I am not sure that the icarus-looking upperside isn't thersites as well, despite the colour and the rather thin black border. Could one of those uppersides be orbitulus?

I have to confess that I didn't see argus there, but it would be easy to miss it.

I recall you telling me you rarely see icarus puddling and I must say that is my experience too, whereas thersites is an enthusiastic puddler.

I'm also unsure as to the identity of the one you've put a question mark by, Roger. Similarly, I'm a bit puzzled by the one I've marked myself, next to the Mountain Argus. The upf looks like escheri but I don't think I've ever seen spots on the uphs before.

[Roger Gibbons]

The one you've ringed looks like eros to me, David.

See what Guy and Pete think.

Roger

[Padfield]

I think the mystery blue (yellow-ringed in that last picture) is indeed orbitulus (as I'm sure Roger suspects too). It was nagging at me last night and for some reason (two years away from la Suisse?) the answer didn't come. I agree the blue-ringed one is eros.

I'm not with Roger on his escheri, though blues are particularly difficult in still photos, as in the field you see the full range of refractive colours, not just one particular angle. I'll annotate another copy of the pic and add that to the mix ...

Re argus, the isolated blue smack in the middle (left to right) at the bottom was my cert.

Guy

[petesmith]

The one you've ringed looks like eros to me, David.

See what Guy and Pete think.

Roger

I agree, looks like a definite eros. Roger, the one that you have as ??, it looks like a good candidate for orbitulus - can;t match it to anything else, and orbitulus certainly flies in this area. Good call!

[David M]

I don't see that butterfly as eros.

The nearest thing it looks like is the polonus I saw in the French Pyrenees a few years ago; pale in colour, no bisecting black lines through the white fringe and spots on the hindwing margins.

I'll post the image again. Roger's mystery Blue is circled yellow (most likely for me is thersites).

Circled red is what I believe to be a nailed on eros. The one circled green is quite unlike it.

[Roger Gibbons]

I would suggest that that is just natural variation, David.

Here is one that looks just like it:
https://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/htm ... es_14Jul10_

The marginal spotting is quite common for eros, as is the slight chequering of the fringes. The colour looks right for eros, and the vein is prominent. An opinion from Guy?

Guy's comment on escheri - was that the upperside I ringed (which had ??) or the underside, which I think was quite clearly escheri.

The lone "argus" botttom middle, could be.The borders look sufficiently broad and solid, albeit with a suggestion of "idas" triangles.

Roger

[Padfield]

A quickie - so no time to upload my own crib sheet!

I'm happy with your escheri uns, Roger. But the ups towards the bottom left of the picture I see as icarus. For the reason I mentioned above, about how single shots of blues can be very misleading, I'm quite happy to be wrong on this. It almost has the escheri antlers (the highlighted veins around the bottom of the forewing cell, which always stand out in escheri) and the fringes are OK. On the other hand, the lack of dark veins leaking in from the margins makes it look very unlike escheri, and overall it just screams 'icarus' at me. I have plenty of pictures of icarus at mud and it's not uncommon at altitude in Switzerland, so I don't have any a priori reason to rule it out. The lack of furry androconia in a reasonably fresh individual suggests it's not thersites. BUT as I say, I'm quite happy to accept your judgment that it's escheri, if you're convinced.

The one David can't see as eros, I can't really see as anything else, to be honest. It just goes to show how we all pick up on different signals from a butterfly. In the field, all of us would recognise eros instantly, from the flash of silver as it shifted in the light (apart from anything else). The same is true for escheri, which I don't think anyone could ever confuse with icarus in real life. And then there's the phenomenon of semantic satiation: if you say the same word over and over again it drains of meaning, and if you look at the same picture of the same butterfly for long enough it becomes bizarrely unfamiliar!

I'm not really in any doubt about the argus at the bottom. I'm not sure what you mean about 'idas triangles' though, Roger. If it is the indentations in the hindwing border, that is normal in argus in my part of Switzerland. At the other end of the country, though, the border is often twice as wide and quite smooth interiorly.

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

A quick response at this hour - I gave the "escheri" upperside two question marks (one would mean less uncertainty), so I'm happy with any opinion that it isn't escheri.

The argus I see have very broad and smooth borders, or are spotted - as the two male uppersides on my argus page: https://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/htm ... es_27Jun09_

Roger

[Jack Harrison]

Deleted because I upset somebody.

Jack

[David M]

Did you take any more images of this scene, Pete? Maybe a few moved slightly giving us another opportunity?

[petesmith]

Did you take any more images of this scene, Pete? Maybe a few moved slightly giving us another opportunity?

Hi David, Yes, at the time I took quite a number of photographs of this spectacle, but, probably in common with many of us, on arriving home I went through my 1000+ photo's from the trip, and kept the best ones, before deleting the "also rans". Sadly, this image was the only one that I saved in my permanent files...unless somewhere I have a back up disc with all of the shots from the trip.

I shall have a look tomorrow, but I think it is unlikely I have any others saved. I do know that John Chapple has some video footage of this scene, as we were there at the same time with our respective "better halves". The video footage may be more enlightening than the still image. If he is following this thread, perhaps he can post a link? Shame I can't tag him, facebook-style!