Large Copper

[Tony Moore]

Hi everyone from a new member.

There was an apparent illegal release of LC in the Peak District last year - I saw some pix on the web. Does anyone know precisely where, or who was resposible? Any further activity this year? Any info would be appreciated.

Tony Moore.

[Pete Eeles]

Hi Tony - and welcome!

I don't know about last year. There was a release in Carr Vale in Derbyshire in 2006.

I don't know who was responsible.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

It's a difficult issue that faces many butterfly breeders - what to do with the resulting stock. Large Copper can be pretty successful in captivity and when you're presented with a few dozen adult butterflies at emergence time what does one do with the excess? If you don't want to kill or set them there is little choice but to release them.

Pete, you're breeding LC's at the moment - what will you be doing with the resulting adult butterflies?

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

A very good question - and a debate that should be had out in the open. I expect this thread to get somewhat "heated" - but not as much as the photo competitions

My Large Coppers (I was given 10 young larvae, which has resulted in 10 adults - 3 male and 7 female) have successfully paired and have laid over 200 eggs between them. My intention is to keep some stock for a second generation, and donate the remainder to other breeders to replenish their stock and add some variety to the gene pool. This species has been in circulation (I believe) for over 15 years.

This thread "could" turn into a great debate about the principles that one should follow in rearing Lepidoptera. My personal view is that this very much depends on the species being considered, the purpose for rearing in captivity, and what will happen to the resulting adults. As well as a shedload of other factors. But if anyone has any concerns about rearing in captivity then perhaps we could share them here and debate them.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Rogerdodge]

In my opinion, there are only two circumstances where the 'amateur' should release captive bred/raised adult butterflies into the wild.

Firstly when releasing them back where the stock was taken from.

Secondly, releasing where they have no chance of breeding - e.g. Large Copper in an area where Water Dock doesn't exist.

Anything outside of this (and I stress - for the amateur) could be harmful to the existing ecology.

I think it is acceptable for professional scientists to release adults into re-created habitat, or to strengthen the gene pool in existing, but genetically isolated populations.

This is just my humble, and non-scientific, opinion. And I may be shown to be wrong.

Roger Harding

[Pete Eeles]

In my opinion, there are only two circumstances where the 'amateur' should release captive bred/raised adult butterflies into the wild.

Firstly when releasing them back where the stock was taken from.

Secondly, releasing where they have no chance of breeding - e.g. Large Copper in an area where Water Dock doesn't exist.

Anything outside of this (and I stress - for the amateur) could be harmful to the existing ecology.

I think it is acceptable for professional scientists to release adults into re-created habitat, or to strengthen the gene pool in existing, but genetically isolated populations.

This is just my humble, and non-scientific, opinion. And I may be shown to be wrong.

Roger Harding

Good thoughts Roger. The main concern, I think we'd agree, is with amateur breeders who get stock of species that are not widespread. The release of Painted Lady adults (by school children, for example) is not a problem for obvious reasons. However, Joe Blogs releasing Black Hairstreak into a known colony is utterly irresponsible for several reasons that have already been discussed in these forums:

1. It can introduce disease.
2. It can weaken the gene pool - especially if the stock is from a different location.
3. It can skew conservation measurements.
4. It is illegal.

Even releasing stock that is obviously a release is illegal and, beyond that, can be problematic depending on the site concerned. The release of Black-veined White on Stockbridge Down in Hampshire last year, for example, caused excessive trampling due to the large influx of visitors.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

I hope that I haven't stirred up a hornets nest!! That wasn't my intention at all...

I don't really want to get involved in a debate on captive breeding or releases, but I would say this - the only remaining Wood White colony in Dorset exists as a result of an unauthorised release using stock from the last natural colony which became extinct as a result of habitat deterioration. The colony is doing well and has expanded significantly over recent years. This unauthorised introduction was the salvation of the Dorset Wood White.

The Marsh Fritillaries at Priddy Minaries in Somerset are also an unauthorised release, topped up every now and again by the breeder (a chappy from Bristol). Many people enjoy this little 'colony' of Marsh Fritillaries (and I know that some people who contribute to this site visit it most years). Were it not for the unauthorised release of specimens, the colony would not exist.

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

I hope that I haven't stirred up a hornets nest!! That wasn't my intention at all...

I don't really want to get involved in a debate on captive breeding or releases, but I would say this - the only remaining Wood White colony in Dorset exists as a result of an unauthorised release using stock from the last natural colony which became extinct as a result of habitat deterioration. The colony is doing well and has expanded significantly over recent years. This unauthorised introduction was the salvation of the Dorset Wood White.

The Marsh Fritillaries at Priddy Minaries in Somerset are also an unauthorised release, topped up every now and again by the breeder (a chappy from Bristol). Many people enjoy this little 'colony' of Marsh Fritillaries (and I know that some people who contribute to this site visit it most years). Were it not for the unauthorised release of specimens, the colony would not exist.

Felix.

Thanks Felix - good observations, but I'm not sure what message you're trying to convey here.

Are you saying that it's OK to release captive-bred stock into the wild, and it should be encouraged?

Or are you saying that some of the "principles" (and regulations) in place aren't necessarily delivering the desired results?

Or something else?

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

Not conveying a message Pete!

Just stating two facts. Will let others draw conclusions, although it's an emotive subject and I suspect that most people will have pretty entrenched views.

For what it's worth I completely agree with your summary of the situation in your post above...

Felix.

[Matsukaze]

The Marsh Fritillaries at Priddy Minaries in Somerset are also an unauthorised release, topped up every now and again by the breeder (a chappy from Bristol). Many people enjoy this little 'colony' of Marsh Fritillaries (and I know that some people who contribute to this site visit it most years). Were it not for the unauthorised release of specimens, the colony would not exist.

Hi Felix, I know you are playing devil's advocate here, but...

This really, really annoys the local Wildlife Trust, who are trying to restore habitat on the Mendips (there is a similar problem on the Poldens). It is hard to know whether some of the populations are natural, or viable, and to what extent they are being 'topped-up' by further releases. I doubt it does much to encourage them to conserve butterflies, or know if their conservation methods are working, either.

If the Large Blue ever turns up on the Mendips, how do we know if it got there naturally, or illicitly?

Releases of species like the Marsh Fritillary are a godsend to the unscrupulous who want to build on their natural sites, too.

[Piers]

Hi Matzukaze, I don't disagree with you.

I was just citing a fact rather than venturing an opinion. I don't condone the practise, for the reasons that you and Pete have given.

These releases will happen though; and unless there is a climate where the individuals concerned feel that they can be more open about their activities these activities will continue. What can be done to encourage people to be more open about what they are doing? after all, I certainly don't hear anyone complaining about the Wood White colony in Dorset. If this unauthorised release was reversed by the individual originally responsible, there would be outcry!

Perhaps the conservation groups could work more closely with some of these more serious amateur breeders instead out simply condemning their activities and driving them underground.

Remember, some of these chaps are pretty serious amateurs, and lead the way in their field. The results of their work are often published in various scientific journals and some have made significant (and sometimes ground breaking) studies of parasitism, disease, relationships with other invertebrates, etc etc.

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

Not conveying a message Pete!

Just stating two facts. Will let others draw conclusions, although it's an emotive subject and I suspect that most people will have pretty entrenched views.

For what it's worth I completely agree with your summary of the situation in your post above...

Felix.

Thanks Felix. My conclusion, being deliberately provocative (since I would actually like something to be done about this state of affairs), is that the current law, guidance given out by various bodies, and personal beliefs, are in complete disarray and often contradictory - providing no benefit to anyone - and especially not the poor butterflies (and moths) that we all love. I have numerous examples myself. The obvious confusion that abounds on these forums when someone asks the simplest of questions tells me this. If everything was crystal clear, then such debate wouldn't arise at all, would it? and we'd all give the same answer!

Even the Wildlife and Countryside Act is confusing. For example, the Duke of Burgundy is protected "for sale only". This means anyone can go out and collect up as many Dukes as they like and, unless it can be proven that these were for sale, the collectors are in the clear. I know that a colony in the south of England was decimated by two collectors who just ... collected them all up. Every one. What sort of useless legislation is that?

Cheers,

- Pete

[Pete Eeles]

Perhaps the conservation groups could work more closely with some of these more serious amateur breeders instead out simply condemning their activities and driving them underground.

Remember, some of these chaps are pretty serious amateurs, and lead the way in their field. The results of their work are often published in various scientific journals and some have made significant (and sometimes ground breaking) studies of parasitism, disease, relationships with other invertebrates, etc etc.

Felix.

Excellent response Felix - hear hear. I couldn't agree more since some of these breeders are actively involved in supplying stock and assisting with reintroduction programmes!

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

Even the Wildlife and Countryside Act is confusing. For example, the Duke of Burgundy is protected "for sale only". This means anyone can go out and collect up as many Dukes as they like and, unless it can be proven that these were for sale, the collectors are in the clear. I know that a colony in the south of England was decimated by two collectors who just ... collected them all up. Every one. What sort of useless legislation is that?

Pete,

This is bad. Very bad. I too was aware of the situation and have been trying to source who was responsible in order to 'out' them. There isn't any entomological community in England which would condone this behaviour.

HOWEVER...let us not respond with knee jerk legislation (as all too often happens) which could adversely affect the endeavours of legitimate entomological studies and legitimate entomologists (while at the same time merely driving the mere collector further underground).

If any legislation should be passed or tightened up at present it should surely be the adequate protection of habitats. As things currently stand, if I am a major developer and I can prove 'sufficient economic benefit to the local community' there isn't an SSSI in the land that I couldn't develop, and don't think for one moment that the European Habitats Directive will carry any clout either - that has already proven impotent when it really should have mattered.

This is the situation that most threatens our native fauna - be it flies, butterflies, birds or mammals.

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

Couldn't agree more on the habitat front - that's another area that needs tightening up.

From a more individual perspective - it would seem that the fundamental "balance" to be achieved is between tigthening up regulations to prevent collectors, but which then prevents valid scientific study ... and relaxing regulations to support broader study, but which opens things up for collectors. Perhaps a licensing scheme is in order?

There are some interesting precedents around, which I don't think work in all cases. For example, I believe that even catching a lep in a net in Germany is against the law. The downside is they have no idea what conservation efforts are required or are working - or what populations they even have! Perhaps the German building firms are in favour of their current approach. I hope I have this all wrong - anyone got any insights?

Cheers,

- Pete

[eccles]

WRT the marsh fritillaries at Priddy, if they need to be regularly 'topped up' then the habitat is wrong for them, and I can understand SWT getting hot under the collar about it.

Having said that, there has been a small colony at Hazelbury Common for many years with around 20 individuals counted by me during the peak this year. Perhaps they are the result of an originally unauthorised release, but the foodplant is there in abundance and they seem to be doing quite well on it. In these days of dreadful planning decisions by local authorities and the government that fragment our already depleted ecosystems, well meaning amateurs are sometimes all that are left.

[Cotswold Cockney]

I'd bet a nice few quid that all the captive Large Copper Livestock currently circulating can be traced back to one breeder who, by careful selective breeding, maintained a 'reserve' stock of this fine 'batavus' race back in the 1970-80s. Back then, for about ten years, I too maintained a captive stock and also by careful selective breeding, produced a strong LARGE race of healthy specimens which were a delight to see and admired by many butterfly enthusiasts when I exhibited them both as livestock and set specimens.

Within two or three years of starting my 'batavus' breeding programme, by trial and error I found a way of successfully hibernating overwinter 90%+ of the small larvae. It soon got out of hand and one spring, I had well in excess of 1000 healthy larvae. In spring and summer, feeding only 100 to fit and healthy imagines involves a huge committment in time and energy if the stock is not to suffer. Imagine the demands of one thousand!

Few folks are able to devote such committment to livestock. In my opinion, that's the main underlying reason why the impression that captive bred stock is invariably weak. My observations suggest this impression is false. Good husbandry of captive livestock of any species is the answer, otherwise good farm livestock would have died out ages ago. Also in my experience, highly qualified 'butterfly' academics rarely make good breeders of butterflies. My evidence? The best, that of my own ears and eyes, indeed, it may be largely mutually exclusive. This also creates a false value. Some have even told me that "It can't be done old boy" for something I'd been successfully 'doing' for years. Such can be the narrow focus of their areas of expertise.

With that successful overwintering larve programme, I suspect I discovered why this butterfly no longer survives well in the wild as a biproduct. Certainly habitat destruction is the main reason but, why did it die out in areas apparently continuing to be suitable. I believe the conditions for the Great Water Dock overwinter must be very precise if those hibernating larve are to survive. Those conditions are very subtle and no longer regularly occur each year ... in the wild. One poor winter of unfavourable GWD conditions can wipe out a colony and given increasing isolation or depletion of suitable alternative sites.......end of story. In the final analysis, same old story .... human interference ... simple as...

[iann]

I have been fascinated by this wide ranging thread and I completely agree with Pete that the laws on collecting can often seem nonsensical. It seems ridiculous that unscrupulous individuals are allowed within the law to plunder fragmented, low density colonies of say, the Duke of Burgundy Fritillary, thus endangering the longevity of a given species at a given site, provided they are not selling the set specimens. Yet at the same time, captive breeders, who may be skilfully rearing large numbers of rare butterflies for dissemination amongst other enthusiasts, or for valid release purposes, can feel a tad exposed by the law (burden of proof lies with the individual) for rearing the most protected species. I personally do not own a collection of British Butterflies, but I think a valid concern held by some is that if collecting is banned then this may be the thin end of a wedge that could eventually lead to a total ban on captive breeding.

A problem I have often pondered on is what happens if a fully protected species goes out of circulation amongst captive breeders? Do we simply accept that we have lost the right to breed that species forever? I think that would be a terrible shame and a huge loss. Presently there are many responsible individuals who continue to enjoy rearing our native Swallowtail, but this may not always be the case if interest dwindles and captive stocks die out. In the event of such a calamity I would like to think that Butterfly Conservation would re-circulate new livestock to perhaps a few 'affiliated nominate breeders' who could then distribute their excess stock through a respected and established organisation like the ELG to other amatuer breeders - a kind of 'nominate breeder scheme' rather than a need for licenses. Imagine if we still had stocks of our own native Large Copper breeding in captivity - just a thought...

[Mark Senior]

Greetings to all on here , my first post so may as well make a controversial one .
Many on this thread have argued that it is wrong to release captive bred specimens of species into new or existing areas .
I would argue that it is not only not wrong to do so but that in the 21st century where suitable habitats for many species are so fragmented that it is an essential part of conserving present populations and extending the range of the rarer species to do so .
For example , I know of a perfect site for Duke Of Burgundy's , plenty of food plant , a range of South , East and North facing slopes and no Duke colony within 15 miles . The chance of colonisation by natural forces is to all intents and purposes zero . I would argue that it is would be purely beneficial to introduce captive bred stock onto this site .
Many of our rarer butterfly species now exist in well scattered colonies and unlike in say the 19th century when the range was more continous , these colonies get no new influx into the gene pool from other colonies . This will in the end lead to a weakening of the gene pool and make the colony more susceptible to extinction . The introduction of new genes from release of captive bred specimens can only lead to a stronger gene pool and a more thriving colony .
It is interesting that many who would oppose the release of captive bred specimens into new areas on the grounds of interfering with nature would see nothing wrong in planting for example kidney vetch on a new site in an attempt to attract the Small Blue . Far better IMHO to plant kidney vetch and release captive bred Small Blues .
I should add finally , that I have no connection whatsoever with the breeding of butterflies and have never released any captive bred butterflies into the wild though I would not rule out doing so at some time in the future .
Now everyone can flame away at my post .

[Cotswold Cockney]

No flames from this quarter although I suspect one or two may form a queue to do so.

By the way ~ welcome 'new here'.