Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
- Paul Wetton
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Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Photos taken at an altitude of approx. 500 metres in the Picos de Europa. Any help with IDs greatly appreciated.
My initial thoughts were Image 1 was a female Meadow Fritillary - Mellicta parthenoides
the remainder may all be Heath Fritillary - Mellicta athalia although I was informed there is now a new species Iberian Heath Fritillary in this area.
Image 1 These next photos are of the same butterfly.
Image 2 Image 3 Image 4 I originally considered False Heath Fritillary for this one but it's probably Heath Fritillary.
Image 5 Image 6 The habitat was as shown in the next photo: Any help much appreciated.
This final shot was attached in error but was considered a possible Provencal Fritillary - Mellicta deione
My initial thoughts were Image 1 was a female Meadow Fritillary - Mellicta parthenoides
the remainder may all be Heath Fritillary - Mellicta athalia although I was informed there is now a new species Iberian Heath Fritillary in this area.
Image 1 These next photos are of the same butterfly.
Image 2 Image 3 Image 4 I originally considered False Heath Fritillary for this one but it's probably Heath Fritillary.
Image 5 Image 6 The habitat was as shown in the next photo: Any help much appreciated.
This final shot was attached in error but was considered a possible Provencal Fritillary - Mellicta deione
Cheers Paul
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I'll be very interested in any suggestions for these butterflies, Kip. Quite honestly, I thought your first image had female Meadow Frit written all over it, but given that I made errors in the identification of this species only last month, I'll await others to pitch in to support/contradict your hunch.
As for the rest, well, they all look suspiciously 'Heath-like' to me, though given the taxonomic changes recently, I'm really not sure about too much these days!
As for the rest, well, they all look suspiciously 'Heath-like' to me, though given the taxonomic changes recently, I'm really not sure about too much these days!
- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi David
I started off fairly confidently then the more I looked at the images the more unsure I became, so hopefully a more expert opinion will put my mind at rest.
Thanks
Paul
I started off fairly confidently then the more I looked at the images the more unsure I became, so hopefully a more expert opinion will put my mind at rest.
Thanks
Paul
Cheers Paul
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- Roger Gibbons
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I would expect the hindwing to show the usual absence of markings in the discal area for Meadow (M. parthenoides) - the "gappy" appearance that ususally indicates this species.
I would suggest that it is more likely deione, although I say that with the caveat that it is variable across its range and I have no experience of deione in the Picos. The hindwing colour contrast is a little muted (maybe this is how they are in the Picos - always assuming it flies there) but otherwise it looks very much more like deione than athalia. Hopefully Guy will pick this up and give an opinion.
I agree with David that the others all look like athalia. This is a very common species (unlike the UK) and very variable across its range.
Roger
I would suggest that it is more likely deione, although I say that with the caveat that it is variable across its range and I have no experience of deione in the Picos. The hindwing colour contrast is a little muted (maybe this is how they are in the Picos - always assuming it flies there) but otherwise it looks very much more like deione than athalia. Hopefully Guy will pick this up and give an opinion.
I agree with David that the others all look like athalia. This is a very common species (unlike the UK) and very variable across its range.
Roger
- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi Roger
Many thanks for your input. I did see deione on this holiday with females showing a more contrasting hindwing but as you say there is a lot of variability.
Thanks again
Paul
Many thanks for your input. I did see deione on this holiday with females showing a more contrasting hindwing but as you say there is a lot of variability.
Thanks again
Paul
Cheers Paul
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I've looked at lots of internet photos of female parthenoides and many of them show Spanish butterflies to have some lines and markings in the discal area of the upper hindwing similar to on Image 1. I'll await an opinion from Guy as well as he has good experience of forms found in Spain. On the LepidApp there is even a photo of a female in Spain that looks quite similar.
Thanks All
Paul
Thanks All
Paul
Cheers Paul
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hello Guy
Would you be able to cast your eye over these for me when you have a minute before I add any more photos to this link.
Many thanks
Would you be able to cast your eye over these for me when you have a minute before I add any more photos to this link.
Many thanks
Cheers Paul
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- Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi Paul. Sorry not to have replied earlier. I did see the post but thought (correctly!
) that some of the other Melitaea fans would give an opinion while I was away from my books. I say that because I've never visited the Picos (I almost went there this year but in the end decided on Arragón) so am not familiar with the forms there.
My first impression, before getting back to those books, is that all these are probably nevadensis - with the possible exception of the first. As you say, athalia has been split. If my memory serves me correctly, the Picos, like the Pyrenees, are home to nevadensis. Some authors seem to recognise athalia, nevadensis and celadussa but I don't think that is the latest thinking. Certainly, 2-7 look very good for this (nevadensis). In the Pyrenees, form vernetensis (of diamina) can be confusing because it lacks the usual dark hindwings of that species. In addition, the underside lacks the distinctive pd black dots. I can't remember if any similar form is found in the Picos but should easily be able to check. Between Oorschot & Coutsis and Leraut there are dozens of individuals illustrated from the full range of all Melitaea species.
As for 1, I agree it has the general appearance of parthenoides but my instinct says nevadensis too. I really wouldn't want you to place undue weight on my opinion. I remember, many years ago now, sending a somewhat similar photo (but with a bit of a dumbell) to Matt Rowlings, Tim Cowles and Tristan Lafranchis, trying to string deione. No one could say with any confidence but Tristan opined it was celadussa (as it was then) - for no better reason than that his instinct said that!
The internet - and even, I am forced to admit, Lepidapp - is not infallible because most photographers don't kill butterflies or squeeze their bottoms to confirm identities. The illustrations in Oorschot & Coutsis and Leraut should all be of what they say they are.
Lots of words for not much help
but I will take another look as soon as I get back to CH.
Guy
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
My first impression, before getting back to those books, is that all these are probably nevadensis - with the possible exception of the first. As you say, athalia has been split. If my memory serves me correctly, the Picos, like the Pyrenees, are home to nevadensis. Some authors seem to recognise athalia, nevadensis and celadussa but I don't think that is the latest thinking. Certainly, 2-7 look very good for this (nevadensis). In the Pyrenees, form vernetensis (of diamina) can be confusing because it lacks the usual dark hindwings of that species. In addition, the underside lacks the distinctive pd black dots. I can't remember if any similar form is found in the Picos but should easily be able to check. Between Oorschot & Coutsis and Leraut there are dozens of individuals illustrated from the full range of all Melitaea species.
As for 1, I agree it has the general appearance of parthenoides but my instinct says nevadensis too. I really wouldn't want you to place undue weight on my opinion. I remember, many years ago now, sending a somewhat similar photo (but with a bit of a dumbell) to Matt Rowlings, Tim Cowles and Tristan Lafranchis, trying to string deione. No one could say with any confidence but Tristan opined it was celadussa (as it was then) - for no better reason than that his instinct said that!
The internet - and even, I am forced to admit, Lepidapp - is not infallible because most photographers don't kill butterflies or squeeze their bottoms to confirm identities. The illustrations in Oorschot & Coutsis and Leraut should all be of what they say they are.
Lots of words for not much help
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Guy
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi Guy
Many thanks for taking a look and passing on your thoughts on these photos. I think nevadensis was pretty common in various habitats. I'm still not sure about Image 1 as it did appear quite different to all the others, was found alone whereas the others seemed to congregate together and it was much fresher than the other Melitaea fritillaries. Of course it could be nevadensis.
I would appreciate you letting me know if you think any different after looking in your books.
I thought the following were likely Meadow Fritillary:
and the following a Provencal female:
Further thoughts welcome
Many thanks for taking a look and passing on your thoughts on these photos. I think nevadensis was pretty common in various habitats. I'm still not sure about Image 1 as it did appear quite different to all the others, was found alone whereas the others seemed to congregate together and it was much fresher than the other Melitaea fritillaries. Of course it could be nevadensis.
I would appreciate you letting me know if you think any different after looking in your books.
I thought the following were likely Meadow Fritillary:
and the following a Provencal female:
Further thoughts welcome
Cheers Paul
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- Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I do like that last one for deione!
Second definitely parthenoides.
First also parthenoides - slightly short of definite.
Guy
Second definitely parthenoides.
First also parthenoides - slightly short of definite.
Guy
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Thanks Guy
Some individuals were much easier than others to identify. I' have a few more that I'm less certain of plus some tricky Pyrgus I'm very uncertain of.
Thanks again
Paul
Some individuals were much easier than others to identify. I' have a few more that I'm less certain of plus some tricky Pyrgus I'm very uncertain of.
Thanks again
Paul
Cheers Paul
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I have some video clips of two interesting looking Melitaea fritillaries from the first day.
One had very dark markings on around the orange lunules on the underside of the hindwing shown below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db3NU4O9f9c
The second was quite dark on the upperside with a possible club shaped mark on the upper forewing as shown below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3H5hqE8nzU
Any comments welcome on these please.
Thanks
One had very dark markings on around the orange lunules on the underside of the hindwing shown below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db3NU4O9f9c
The second was quite dark on the upperside with a possible club shaped mark on the upper forewing as shown below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3H5hqE8nzU
Any comments welcome on these please.
Thanks
Cheers Paul
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi Guy
If you have a minute could you take a peek at the two pieces of video footage in this link please.
Many thanks
If you have a minute could you take a peek at the two pieces of video footage in this link please.
Many thanks
Cheers Paul
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
I managed to find some video footage of the butterfly in image 1 that my dad took and it shows the upper hindwing to have a discal line completely across it ruling out parthenoides (Meadow Fritillary) therefore Rogers suggestion of deione (Provencal) is the most likely suspect.
Cheers Paul
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- Padfield
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hi Paul. For the two video butterflies, my vote comes down on diamina. Forms with more orange on the upperside hindwing occur not only in the high Pyrenees but in much of Cataluña at lower altitudes (examples in Oorschot & Coutsis include Huesca, 1200 and Girona 1000m. Unfortunately, neither shows individuals from the Picos. But my overall impression is that these are not nevadensis and the feel is definitely more diamina.
For that very first one, at the top of the page, I still think nevadensis the most likely. The very last picture on the page (above this post!) still looks good for deione.
You shouldn't underestimate how difficult this genus is. Nevadensis is extremely variable. This male, from Switzerland (which is 100% nevadensis), shares many common features with your first picture on this page:
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2013/athalia23august2013a.jpg)
Obviously, yours is a female. Female nevadensis is more similar in colour to the male than female deione. I wish I could offer more certainty. If someone else can, I am very keen to learn from him or her!!
Guy
For that very first one, at the top of the page, I still think nevadensis the most likely. The very last picture on the page (above this post!) still looks good for deione.
You shouldn't underestimate how difficult this genus is. Nevadensis is extremely variable. This male, from Switzerland (which is 100% nevadensis), shares many common features with your first picture on this page:
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2013/athalia23august2013a.jpg)
Obviously, yours is a female. Female nevadensis is more similar in colour to the male than female deione. I wish I could offer more certainty. If someone else can, I am very keen to learn from him or her!!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Guy
Guy's Butterflies: https://www.guypadfield.com
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- Paul Wetton
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Re: Fritillary ID Picos de Europa
Hello Guy
Many thanks for your comments which are extremely helpful. I've looked at image 1 several times and couldn't be certain between nevadensis and deione. As you say nevadensis is extremely variable and with my limited knowledge of this species it was difficult to make any sort of a decision but I will go with nevadensis.
It's also pleasing to see that you agree with my hunch on diamina.
Many thanks again for you help with these.
If you have chance please would have a look at my Picos Pyrgus post. Thanks P.
Many thanks for your comments which are extremely helpful. I've looked at image 1 several times and couldn't be certain between nevadensis and deione. As you say nevadensis is extremely variable and with my limited knowledge of this species it was difficult to make any sort of a decision but I will go with nevadensis.
It's also pleasing to see that you agree with my hunch on diamina.
Many thanks again for you help with these.
If you have chance please would have a look at my Picos Pyrgus post. Thanks P.
Cheers Paul
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